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  TUER: Truly Unusual Experience of Revolution, FPS using JOGL  (Read 485623 times)
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Offline gouessej
« Reply #600 - Posted 2009-07-14 16:37:27 »

hey Juien, I know this has nothing to do with your project, but I am just a little curious.
Don't you have problems with your girlfriend/family with this ? I am asking it because when I was programming like 3 hours/day my girlfriend got very jealous of Java, and I guess she was right.. I think I was wasting too much of my time in a hobby .
Don't u feel that sometimes your hobby is taking over your life ?
I have almost no social life, I have (currently) no girlfriend and I live far from my family, therefore I have no problem with them  Tongue I want to succeed. TUER is far from being a complete first person shooter and the remaining bugs in the mouse input are quite demoralizing.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline gouessej
« Reply #601 - Posted 2009-07-15 09:29:26 »

This topic concerning TUER has been moved without my approval, it does not respect the following rules written by Demonpants:
Quote
Who decides when a WIP is ready for Games Showcase?
You decide the difference. The distinction between WIPs and Games Showcase will not be moderated

Therefore, this topic must be moved back into the showcase section immediately.

I need some support, [size=20pt]please protest[/size]. A quite stable and playable version that does not rely on JMonkeyEngine is still available, that is why my game has nothing to do in the WIP section whereas I have worked on it since October 2006, I have already explained it several times. The viewpoint of the author should always be respected when it deals with whether to move his game in the WIP section.

I have NEVER asked anyone to put my game into the WIP section, is that clear?

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 1030
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #602 - Posted 2009-07-15 10:39:43 »

Julien, you remember that post I made about forum etiquette? There's an old, old bit of internet etiquette about "shouting" which I was alluding to, which tends to ruffle people's feathers up the wrong way and make moderators extra cross.

Personally I think that this thread should have been moved here long ago. It's 21 pages of you mostly talking to yourself about tiny changes to a game you're constantly working on and 95% of the time the game has been almost totally unplayable by any reasonable definition of the word. If you want to put a game in the showcase, then draw a line under it and release it.

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline gouessej
« Reply #603 - Posted 2009-07-15 10:52:58 »

If you want to put a game in the showcase, then draw a line under it and release it.
My game should not have been moved to the WIP section without my prior consent, it is a violation of the JGO rules. My game must be moved back to the showcase section at first in order to come back to a regular situation and only at this time a decision will be made concerning whether or not to put it into the WIP section both by the concerned moderators and by me. Nobody should accept that some moderators wrote some rules and some other moderators do not respect them arbitrarily.

I respect your opinion but I already know it, there is no need to repeat it and this is not the problem. The move of a game to the WIP section is up to his author, not to a single moderator without the prior consent of his author.

Edit.: The version of TUER that does not use JMonkeyEngine is ugly, boring, etc... but playable, there is a start, an end, a menu, you have something to do, there are some living enemies, you can die, you can shoot, it is tiny but in my humble opinion it is a "game" whatever you say. This version has been frozen for months. However, as I already said, I admit that the version that uses JMonkeyEngine is unplayable. Therefore, there is a playable version and there is an unplayable version. Please don't take it bad, I think that we should discuss about this aspect only once it will be time to make a fair decision and it requires my game to be put back into the showcase section in order to respect the rules.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 1030
Projects: 3
Exp: 20 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #604 - Posted 2009-07-15 11:32:47 »

I think it is an absolutely reasonable decision. This thread goes on and on and has no place in a showcase of completed work. Why not post a showcase thread with a permanent link to a current release, and keep this thread out of the way in the WIP section so you can carry on posting to it as you make tweaks here and there and expound upon your confusion with mouse input etc.?

Cas Smiley

Offline gouessej
« Reply #605 - Posted 2009-07-15 12:03:46 »

I think it is an absolutely reasonable decision.
It is not a reasonable decision as it does not respect the rules of the WIP section.

This thread goes on and on and has no place in a showcase of completed work. Why not post a showcase thread with a permanent link to a current release, and keep this thread out of the way in the WIP section so you can carry on posting to it as you make tweaks here and there and expound upon your confusion with mouse input etc.?
I already evoked something like this some months ago but it would be a bit confusing to have a single game with a thread in the showcase section and another thread in the WIP section, wouldn't it? I admit that it would be a far better solution than putting the whole game into the WIP section. I plan to separate the source code into 2 distinct branches, the "alpha" branch that deals with the playable (frozen) version and the "beta" branch (that is currently less stable than the alpha branch unlike what I planned) that deals with the current unplayable version. It would allow to have a showcase thread for the playable version and a thread in the WIP section for the unplayable version. When the "beta" branch is playable, I will update the showcase thread and I will use the WIP section for the first release candidate until it is playable and so on... Is it what you meant?

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline Hansdampf

Senior Devvie


Projects: 3


too offending?


« Reply #606 - Posted 2009-07-15 12:22:45 »

I need some support, [size=20pt]please protest[/size].


lots of sillystupid games: http://www.emaggame.com
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 1030
Projects: 3
Exp: 20 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #607 - Posted 2009-07-15 12:34:48 »

I dunno... if it's going to just keep on changing in tiny increments then don't put it in the showcase section. Get it to the point where it is complete and finished and then post there.

Cas Smiley

Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 19
Projects: 19


Mojang Specifications


« Reply #608 - Posted 2009-07-15 12:35:19 »

Oh, I wasn't aware that Demonpants had said that, and I apologize for going against what was said by another (much more active) admin.

Personally, I think that there should be some moderation between the two forums so people who are looking to play finished games can go look in one forum, and people who are more interested in technology demos and promising concepts can look in the other. I will discuss this with Demonpants.

I'll leave this thread here for now, but I won't be offended if it gets moved back.

Play Minecraft!
Offline ChrisM

JGO Knight


Medals: 20
Projects: 1
Exp: 16 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #609 - Posted 2009-07-15 16:39:34 »

Ok, moved back to return to original state.  However, this brings up a good issue.  We may be changing the policy on this to allow mods to move threads if they feel strongly about where they sit.

As for TUER, you can not argue against the fact that it is a WIP.  In fact, I think I have only ever been successful in running it one time.

As for the demand of what MUST be done, sorry, it doesn't work that way.  We could very well just change the rules, at our discretion, period.  However, it has never been the position of any of us to do these sorts of things without community input.

So, your thread has been moved back to the showcase per the CURRENT policies.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline gouessej
« Reply #610 - Posted 2009-07-15 17:02:25 »

As for TUER, you can not argue against the fact that it is a WIP.  In fact, I think I have only ever been successful in running it one time.
The download time is sometimes a bit long like other games using JOGL through Java Webstart (Millenium Pacman has the same symptom), it has nothing to do with the game itself. My figures (I used AWStats when I was hosted by Tuxfamily) showed that thousands of people succeeded in downloading it completely (JOGL JARs and natives are downloaded before my own JAR, AWStats showed me how many people succeeded in downloading fully this JAR and therefore all necessary resources of my game) and if you have any doubt, you can give it a try once again: http://tuer.sourceforge.net/tuer.jnlp

Now, this thread is back in its original section, we can discuss about the policies, etc...

I have just created a separate branch for the previous version of the game, I have just removed the useless menu items and a few useless things. I will deploy this build later. I consider this previous version as a valid candidate for the games showcase whereas the current version is unplayable (you flip around yourself when you try to shoot, it does not work under Vista, ...) and has nothing to do here. In my humble opinion, it is a good compromise instead of putting the both versions into the WIP section.

Edit.: the artist has left the project Sad

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline gouessej
« Reply #611 - Posted 2009-07-21 17:26:39 »

Hi!

I am sorry, I have overestimated the reliability of Java Webstart under Windows Vista (I hate using it, I'll be authorized to switch back to Linux in 3 months). I tested TUER this afternoon at work and it crashed the first time, I got something like:
Quote
java.util.zip.ZipException: invalid entry size
but the second time, it worked like a charm... after 20 minutes of loading  Cry I have never got this exception under Linux. These problems have nothing to do with my game, it is not a bug of my game, it only means that I have to use something else to deploy and install TUER.

Good news
Ok it is useless but I had 1000 FPS with an NVIDIA Quadro FX 1800 (integrated graphics chip)  Grin

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline Cero
« Reply #612 - Posted 2009-07-22 21:26:45 »

TUER is a work in progress, is it not ?
its not a final product/game

you can one even argue with that

Offline gouessej
« Reply #613 - Posted 2009-07-23 05:23:20 »

TUER is a work in progress, is it not ?
its not a final product/game

you can one even argue with that
The TUER version that does not use JME 2 is not a work in progress, it is a game and this version sometimes crashes during the installation because of this bug of Java Webstart, I cannot argue that it is still a work in progress as it is frozen, it is a tiny final product.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline Cero
« Reply #614 - Posted 2009-07-23 07:23:49 »

I honestly cant understand that argument
I for one would be embarrassed to show something in the games showcase that isn't a solid final product
of course back when the TUER thread was made there was no WIP section

Quote
Who decides when a WIP is ready for Games Showcase?
You decide the difference. The distinction between WIPs and Games Showcase will not be moderated
Also: I could be wrong, but I understand it like: the people decide. Not only the developer.
Somehow I thought "you" stands for "the community".

Offline h3ckboy

JGO Coder


Medals: 5



« Reply #615 - Posted 2009-07-23 08:04:18 »

I think that changing it without you consent was wrong.

although, there has b een a whole page just arguing about it. and it is almost everyone v you. so if all of the people who would test/give feedback dont like you. Then they are less likely to check out your game after an update. So it is in your best interest that you comply with the majority.
Offline gouessej
« Reply #616 - Posted 2009-07-23 21:14:14 »

I honestly cant understand that argument
I for one would be embarrassed to show something in the games showcase that isn't a solid final product
of course back when the TUER thread was made there was no WIP section
I see what you mean but as I already said, the TUER version that does not use JME 2 is a extremely tiny game (it can be considered as a casual game) but it is a game, it works, it has its coherence. If I only provided a single unstable version with nothing to do, it would be legitimate to put it into the WIP section.

Also: I could be wrong, but I understand it like: the people decide. Not only the developer.
Somehow I thought "you" stands for "the community".
The language is an approximation as Chomsky wrote.

I think that changing it without you consent was wrong.
That is my feeling as you already know it.

although, there has b een a whole page just arguing about it. and it is almost everyone v you. so if all of the people who would test/give feedback dont like you. Then they are less likely to check out your game after an update. So it is in your best interest that you comply with the majority.
No, the audible English-speaking majority that posts here consider the both versions of TUER as unfinished programs rather than games whereas the first version of TUER appears in some casual gaming websites (including the Linux Game Tome) because some moderators consider this version as a game and even kingaschi asked me once if I plan to add my game into the Java Game Tome Smiley

Any change of section concerning my game should not be done without my prior consent even though it does not comply with the majority except if my game became a threat for JGO itself. You won't convince me. I think that what I do is fair and I have already suggested an intermediary solution consisting in putting only one version of TUER into the WIP section while keeping another one (the more stable and the more complete) into the showcase.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline CyanPrime
« Reply #617 - Posted 2009-07-24 02:43:09 »

I feel bad that this got moved to WIP. Maybe make a new topic for your frozen one and ask for it to go in the showcase?
Offline Cero
« Reply #618 - Posted 2009-07-24 07:05:26 »

yeah well if those are entirely different games, why are not named like TUER 1 and 2 ? =P

Offline shatterblast

Senior Newbie




Noobier Than Thou


« Reply #619 - Posted 2009-07-24 07:07:41 »

I feel bad that this got moved to WIP. Maybe make a new topic for your frozen one and ask for it to go in the showcase?

It might be better to consider it a compliment.  Anything that is a piece of art tends to get constantly worked on and improved, even many classics from the old masters.

Offline gouessej
« Reply #620 - Posted 2009-07-24 21:18:30 »

This is an anti-democratic change done without my consent, I'm really tired of explaining that it is not the best way to do.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 319
Projects: 25
Exp: 22 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #621 - Posted 2009-07-24 21:34:32 »

Quote
I'm really tired of explaining that it is not the best way to do.

Stop then.

Tried TUER by the way, failed to start here. New machine though, so might be down to configuration. I'll investigate more and let you know.

Kev

Offline ChrisM

JGO Knight


Medals: 20
Projects: 1
Exp: 16 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #622 - Posted 2009-07-24 21:41:51 »

This is an anti-democratic change done without my consent, I'm really tired of explaining that it is not the best way to do.

And, as I have stated before, this is NOT a Democracy.  I am tired of explaining that as well.

Lastly, for the 8+ years that JGO has been in existence, I can't remember another situation like this.  It's not as if your posts were removed from the board, tampered with, condensed, etc.  Just moved to a new category to try and clean the place up.

If you feel that the site no longer serves your interests, well, the internet is a big place.

Oh, and welcome back Kevin Smiley  We really missed you!

Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 319
Projects: 25
Exp: 22 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #623 - Posted 2009-07-24 21:46:27 »

Was a driver issue. The old version works fines. The new version crashed out just after the menu with no logs that I could find.

I'm on XP Home with GeForce 9600. I'll try OSX later.

Kev

Offline gouessej
« Reply #624 - Posted 2009-07-24 22:05:53 »

Was a driver issue. The old version works fines. The new version crashed out just after the menu with no logs that I could find.

I'm on XP Home with GeForce 9600. I'll try OSX later.

Kev
Thank you for testing. You succeeded in using the first version, it is not surprising, it is really reliable. However, this is the first time the new version crashes under Windows XP as far as I know; please it would be fine if you could try again with the console. cylab is going to fix the remaining problems with the mouse input and the display (the gray screen under Vista), I'm impatient to get these fixes because this version is completely unplayable for the moment.

And, as I have stated before, this is NOT a Democracy.  I am tired of explaining that as well.
It is not motivating. I worked a lot today, I'm very tired. It's my game and I have not been consulted. I won't speak about it much except in private because it is not the topic of this thread.

If you feel that the site no longer serves your interests, well, the internet is a big place.
I won't give up.

Oh, and welcome back Kevin Smiley  We really missed you!
I agree with you.

Julien Gouesse | Personal blog | Website | Jogamp
Offline ChrisM

JGO Knight


Medals: 20
Projects: 1
Exp: 16 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #625 - Posted 2009-07-24 22:11:14 »

It is not motivating. I worked a lot today, I'm very tired. It's my game and I have not been consulted. I won't speak about it much except in private because it is not the topic of this thread.

Nothing to consult.  It has been decided that the mods will move at their discretion.  Case closed.

Quote
I won't give up.

 Roll Eyes Won't give up what?  Trying to explain your position?  I heard it.  We have rules now that will handle the cleaning of threads moving forward.  Done.
 
Quote
I agree with you.

Good!

Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #626 - Posted 2009-07-24 22:13:19 »

if its any consultation, your game is no longer in the WIP section, its now the Community Works section. All games finished or WIP's will be here just like the old system (where everything was in one section).

It should really make no difference, just a small heading change/clean up.

We have a new section called Showcase (not like the old showcase), here only games that meet the rules will be added by a moderator, anyone can request their game be moved into the new section once they think it meets the rules. A moderator will review your game, if they agree it meets the rules they will move it otherwise the mod's (if they choose) will leave you some feedback as to why your game did not meet the rules.

kapta.
Offline Eli Delventhal

JGO Kernel


Medals: 42
Projects: 11
Exp: 10 years


Game Engineer


« Reply #627 - Posted 2009-07-24 22:21:12 »

My score for the JOGL version.

+1 point, the game installed and uninstalled correctly using Webstart
+1 point, the game did not crash while I played it
+0 points, the game's presentation leaves much to be desired
+0 points, the game does not have pretty graphics - in fact, they seem out of place most of the time
+0 points, the sounds in the game are repetitive and can get irritating quickly
+0 points, the game's style is uninteresting and bland, I like the French pun for the name, though
+0 points, this game is typical 1990s FPS fare, but not as good
+0 points, I didn't really enjoy playing too much, it was pretty bland and I just died very quickly, unable to dodge enemy fire and not really noticing when I had taken damage because there was no real feedback for it
+0 points, the game really doesn't feel complete at all
+0 points, you've done quite a bit of complaining and protesting to the mods about TUER

Final score: 2/10
Required score for Showcase: 7/10

Notes:
You've got a very solid start for an FPS here, but you by no means have a complete game. Get yourself a game designer, an artist, and a sound effects guy, and then make an FPS. As it stands, your game is less graphically and technically impressive than Marathon, an FPS released in 1994. Obviously it's unfair to compare against a professional company, but regardless, your game just does not at all feel finished, and I'm not just talking graphics. Controls are clunky, gameplay is boring and bland, and it's hard to get the game to do what as a user you feel it should. I am impressed by how much of a good FPS engine you have carved out from scratch, but this still feels like it's got a long way to go.

Also, nobody has anything against TUER. Sure, a lot of people think it's a bad game. But there are lots of bad games on JGO, and yet none of them are called out like yours. The reason is not because of your game or because people are out to get you, it's because you have frequently paraded around how amazing TUER is and how little other people know what they're talking about (when they say they don't like it). If you were to quite calmly and quietly post your game up here and let people say their opinion, take the opinion as you would, and then keep doing your own thing, nobody would have said a single bad thing to you. It's just you running about, posting things in a giant font, or lauding your own game, that people get irritating with. And you always pushing for JOGL when nobody is really fighting against it. It has nothing to do with the quality of your work or TUER itself - it has everything you do with inviting people to criticize you - even daring them.

All that being said, good luck.

See my work:
OTC Software
Offline SimonH
« Reply #628 - Posted 2009-07-25 00:21:27 »

@demonpants: Man, that's harsh! Gouessej is a brother - sure he's got too fond of his darling, but that's no call to get personal!

I wanted to post on the showcase thread (but it got locked) to say: This is a forum right? We come here to learn about our trade, not to sell things. I've learned a lot from TUER & I'm sure others have too - that's what this forum's about: learning... isn't it?

People make games and games make people
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 120
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #629 - Posted 2009-07-25 01:04:44 »

OK, to avoid this topic running off topic and into useless ranting about who said what and what should happen, lets keep it about TUER. Any further discussion regard the Showcase section should be done in the other thread. And yes this forums is about learning and helping developers.

Gouessej any negative comments about TUER should be considered valuable feedback as it helps you understand what people don't like and how you can make TUER better.
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