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  What languages are you comfortable in?  (Read 12486 times)
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Offline kevglass

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« Posted 2007-01-03 07:57:10 »

I recently came across another Java misconception - that if you use/like Java. since it's viewed as a simple language. you can't possibly know anything of or be skilled in any other langauge. I'm interested to see whether it's actually true...

Are you a Java only fan? Or are you comfortable (could pick it up and use it now) in other languages?

Scarily this actually came up in a friend's job application. Doing Java for 2 years meant that they couldn't be considered for a C++ role (which the friend is also skilled in).

Kev

PS. C++, C, C#, PHP, TCL/Tk for me from the list above.

Offline oNyx

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« Reply #1 - Posted 2007-01-03 09:50:09 »

Java, PHP and Python for me. My C/C++ days are totally over. I also did Pascal (yuck) and VB(S) (ASP) (extra yuck) in the past for a few hours. Wrote an exam for my bro (haha) and some forum stuff. It was pretty easy to pick up thanks to my general flow control knowledge from C. It's totally the same after all... just with other syntax.

And hum... simple language? How's that measured? By the amount of options you have for shooting yourself in the foot? C for example is imo simpler than Java. There are less keywords and basically no high level concepts.

But being simple doesn't mean that it's easy to use or that it's productive. Obviously.

I'm a Java fanboy. I love the standardized documentation, the strong typing (makes the documentation so much nicer, too), the coding conventions (not the conventions itself... but its very existence), meaningful error messages and stacktraces.

It saves time and there are way less reasons for being pissed off, which is certainly good for your health. (Seriously. If you're often angry and frustrated, your lifetime will be reduced by years.)

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Offline endolf

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2007-01-03 10:07:55 »

I've not done any C/C++ for a while, but I was quite comfortable with it when I used it. I'm fairly sure I could get back in to it with out much hassle. I've used some of the others, but wouldn't say I was comfortable or proficient with them.

I have had the same issue though. Having not done any C++ for a couple of years, I was getting to interview stages, but no further for C++ jobs. That could just be that I suck at interviews though, I don't seem to get any feedback unless it's a yes, we want you on 1/2 your last jobs salary.

Endolf

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Offline Matzon

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2007-01-03 10:17:55 »

Well, there are degrees of comfortability...

Java, c, c++, c#, vb (and vb.net!) and php. I've done perl and python stuff too - but I wouldn't say I was comfortable with it Smiley

But mainly Java and php these days (and some javascript and sql)

Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #4 - Posted 2007-01-03 10:39:09 »

Wouldn't touch LISP or Python again with a barge-pole, and haven't done anything worth mentioning with Ruby nor TCL, but other than that can program easily in all of them. I *could* program again in LISP and Python, but I'd need to go revise them. Hate C too, but I did it for long enuogh that I can still program fluently in it, usually without an IDE.

A few others I'd have ticked and I suggest you add, because this kind of stuff is very sensitive to the particular career path of the reader:
 Javascript (syntax very similar to VBscript, but in practice IMHO a different lang due to browser + DOM evilness)
 ARM assembler (or any other RISC, but ARM is best IMHO) (completely different from x86, which I'm assuming you were talking about)
 Bash (if you're including perl, the more powerful *SH's are very close and used in many of the same situations. I haven't written a game in BASH, but I've played several by other people)
 SQL
 

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline appel

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« Reply #5 - Posted 2007-01-03 10:57:00 »

I hate C++, although I know it and used it for courses at my university, I prefer Java's simple and elegant language set rather than C++'s bloated makeshift oo languate set.
Offline zero

Junior Devvie





« Reply #6 - Posted 2007-01-03 11:32:40 »

Still like Haskell since my first CS course at university  Smiley
Offline Breakfast

Senior Devvie




for great justice!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2007-01-03 11:35:27 »

I used to use Pascal, C++ and Eiffel as well, have to do bits of Perl for work and I occasionally make a stab at learning Lisp but most of my paid work has been or is currently Java, C#, PHP and Ruby. Used to have to use old VBScript as well but that really is such a simple language it doesn't count...

I'm not sure I'd want to think of PHP as a full-fledged language either really - it's very good for quick-n-dirty web stuff but I wouldn't want to use it in any other context whereas the other languages there are more general-purpose. I know people do use it in other contexts, but if they knew any other languages they wouldn't.

I kind of think that once you've learned a few languages they just become different icing on the cake of programming technique. Except Lisp, which does seem to be a whole new cake of it's own, or at least icing with a significant marzipan layer.
Offline quixote_arg

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« Reply #8 - Posted 2007-01-03 11:52:41 »

Java and Ruby for me... I came across it because of Ruby on Rails and I must say it really does the job! Both rails and ruby alone. In fact I'm planning on using JRuby as scripting language for a game Smiley
Offline kevglass

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« Reply #9 - Posted 2007-01-03 11:59:25 »

Quote
And hum... simple language? How's that measured? By the amount of options you have for shooting yourself in the foot? C for example is imo simpler than Java. There are less keywords and basically no high level concepts.

Not my description, but it does seem to be the percieved view of Java. It's a "baby language". Personally I see the simplicity as a boon not a failure. Simplicity and power combined - nice.

Quote
Well, there are degrees of comfortability...

Yeah, I was trying to think of a way to clarify it. I mean you could pick it up today and do useful real scale stuff in it (this doesn't include hello world or other assocaited uni type assignments).

Quote
Javascript (syntax very similar to VBscript, but in practice IMHO a different lang due to browser + DOM evilness)
 ARM assembler (or any other RISC, but ARM is best IMHO) (completely different from x86, which I'm assuming you were talking about)
 Bash (if you're including perl, the more powerful *SH's are very close and used in many of the same situations. I haven't written a game in BASH, but I've played several by other people)
 SQL

I just noted down the ones I could think of and then checked against the top 10 in the TIOBE List. By assembly I meant any processor (hence any proc). I've programmed in a bunch from VIC20s, Z80s up to PICs and 8086/88. Wouldn't call myself comfortable now though - wouldn't be able to just pick it up. I've never considered pure SQL (without DB specific extensions) a programming langauge - in much the same way HTML isn't a programming language - but each to their own I suppose.

Quote
I'm not sure I'd want to think of PHP as a full-fledged language either really - it's very good for quick-n-dirty web stuff but I wouldn't want to use it in any other context whereas the other languages there are more general-purpose. I know people do use it in other contexts, but if they knew any other languages they wouldn't.

Thats close to calling Java "simple" in a derogatory way. PHP does have everything you expect of a langauge and is widely used in huge applications - especially with the advent of PHP objects and PHP5+. Still, I'm mostly of the same opinion based on my past experience and usage of the language.

All very interesting comments - and I see already there is a definite range of experience here at least.

Keep it coming Smiley

Kev

EDIT: PS. Who else other than me can speak and understand Management BS?

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Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #10 - Posted 2007-01-03 12:06:06 »

I just noted down the ones I could think of and then checked against the top 10 in the TIOBE List. By assembly I meant any processor (hence any proc). I've programmed in a bunch from VIC20s, Z80s up to PICs and 8086/88. Wouldn't call myself comfortable now though - wouldn't be able to just pick it up. I've never considered pure SQL (without DB specific extensions) a programming langauge - in much the same way HTML isn't a programming language - but each to their own I suppose.

Yeah, I mentioned those just because they seemed to be in the same vein as the ones you described. I still think it is worth making the difference between RISC and non-RISC assembly though Smiley.

Quote
EDIT: PS. Who else other than me can speak and understand Management BS?

Not me Sad

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline erikd

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« Reply #11 - Posted 2007-01-03 12:24:38 »

Besides Java, I've worked (in various degrees) with C, C++, Delphi, C#, VB, PHP and assembly (if you count obsolete CPUs too)..
Actually JEmu started out as a Delphi project. Later I rewrote it to C++, and then again in Java (which I sticked to).
I've done some work related projects with VB and PHP, and I've done a lot with C (some time ago, but I'd quite easily pick it up again).
A long time ago I programmed assembly on Z80 and 68000 CPU's, which are of course obsolete since long. Still I'm going through so much disassembly debug traces in JEmu2 that I could still program those CPU's. Not that I ever really need to...

My opinion is that learning a language is the easy part of programming.

Offline Spasi
« Reply #12 - Posted 2007-01-03 13:48:35 »

I use Java, Javascript, CFML and SQL on a daily basis. Have used PHP, but it's been a long time. Never had a chance to do any real work with C/C++.

I can't say I'm fan of a particular language. They are all great and they all suck in different situations. I admire SQL's power though (if you know what you're doing).
Offline Breakfast

Senior Devvie




for great justice!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2007-01-03 15:07:43 »

Quote
Thats close to calling Java "simple" in a derogatory way. PHP does have everything you expect of a langauge and is widely used in huge applications - especially with the advent of PHP objects and PHP5+. Still, I'm mostly of the same opinion based on my past experience and usage of the language.
So what you're saying is, it's like calling java simple, the only difference being it's correct? Grin

I quite appreciate that you can do a lot with PHP and you can do very awesome web apps with it, but when people are using it for command-line scripting or windowed applications that just seems to me a bit like using a sledgehammer to paint a watercolour. There are better tools for the job.

I think if someone could only use Java (or any other single language) I would think twice about offering them a job - even if the work was entirely Java based - because I think you learn things about how languages work by using different ones. I also think that if someone has been programming for a few years and hasn't experimented with different languages they probably don't have the kind of mentality that (in my opinion) makes for a great programmer. I think a lot of old-school VB6 programmers fall into this category, the whole "it works for me, I don't see why I should change it" kind of attitude...
Offline PeterB

Junior Devvie


Exp: 15 years



« Reply #14 - Posted 2007-01-03 20:07:46 »


From this list I'd say I'm comfortable in Java, Perl, PHP.
I used to use C, C++, Pascal/Delphi, VB and Assembly all the time, but 7 years have passed and that's all quite rusty now.
Still I find myself converting some C++ and Delphi code into Java from time to time.


Offline g666

Junior Devvie





« Reply #15 - Posted 2007-01-03 20:13:40 »

"it works for me, I don't see why I should change it"

i dont see whats wrong with that attitude, if you can do something in language x, then why do you need to learn language y?

I am most comfortable in java and php. I have done things in other languages but long enough ago to at least feel I have forgotten alot of it. .)

desperately seeking sanity
Offline kevglass

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« Reply #16 - Posted 2007-01-03 21:34:23 »

Interesting to me that no one so far admits to be comfortable in LISP (is it possible to be comfortable there?) Smiley

Kev

Offline BloodRain

Junior Devvie





« Reply #17 - Posted 2007-01-03 21:48:45 »

In some cases the employer might be right.I learned java before I learned c++ . And it's very hard for me to switch.It seems I'm regressing. No certain api to learn ,too many compilers, so much useless and hard to read code , no portability and probably above all  : no array bounds checking etc. It's probably not very common , but this is how I feel when trying to learn c++.
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #18 - Posted 2007-01-03 23:48:49 »

I recently came across another Java misconception - that if you use/like Java. since it's viewed as a simple language. you can't possibly know anything of or be skilled in any other langauge. I'm interested to see whether it's actually true...


I'm comfortable with Java, C, C#, C++, LISP, Pascal/Delphi and Management BS :o)

I've done some ASM, but not recently enough to believe that I could jump right back into it without a little work (although, I did write a custom VM with it's own bytecode which was very ASM-like!)

I fully agree with you that people think that putting up with C, C++'s foibles proves that you're somehow a 'tough' programmer - if that isn't a laughable idea.  To me that;s just the measure of an immature programmer.  Realising that you can be more productive by letting the computer (and language) do more is a mark of maturity to me, not a lack of skill.

In fact, it's unskilled fanboys who seem to think they're somehow superior  because they use pointer artithmatic.  (I love obfuscated C code as much as the next nerd, but I'd not want to base a million line project on that kind of cowboy shit)

Cheers!

Peter.
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #19 - Posted 2007-01-03 23:49:56 »

Interesting to me that no one so far admits to be comfortable in LISP (is it possible to be comfortable there?) :)

Kev

Oh, I just added myself as comfortable with LISP.  Loverly :o)  In fact, the programming language for my custom VM was a LISP variant :o)
Offline zingbat

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« Reply #20 - Posted 2007-01-04 00:39:51 »

Eiffel is a good OO programming language if you think OO is the best thing. LISP is nice but Prolog is even better. I learned how to program in assembler before even C was invented.

Offline Martin Strand

Junior Devvie





« Reply #21 - Posted 2007-01-04 00:45:29 »

C was invented before I was invented.
Offline swpalmer

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« Reply #22 - Posted 2007-01-04 01:18:09 »

I refuse to use VB... I'm pretty sure it makes you stupid... ;-)   
I suppose I could have the causal relationship reversed though...

I think there is some truth to the idea that an "easy" language to use attracts less skilled programmers in greater numbers (makes sense doesn't it?) and that tends to create a perception that the language itself is to blame for the poor content that those people end up creating.

I recognize the power in Perl.. but it's just plain cryptic to decipher so I avoid it as well.

I've never used C#,  but from what I've heard I imagine it isn't that bad.. though I have no intention of ever using it either... I mean I've got Java so what would be the point?  (At work I program almost exclusively for Windows and Java is still the language of choice for application logic and UI.  We do have to use C++ for some stuff and that's not going to change any time soon.)

C and C++, I don't even differentiate between them.  C++ is to C as Java 5 is to Java 1.4... There is no reason to not simply use C++ these days.. assuming the platform supports it...  even if you just use it as a "better C".  You don't have to make an impossible to read mess of nested templates in C++ if you don't want to.

Lisp?  Why bother?

If I had the time (and I never will) I would learn Python and Ruby

Offline Orangy Tang

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« Reply #23 - Posted 2007-01-04 01:43:59 »

I've never used C#,  but from what I've heard I imagine it isn't that bad.. though I have no intention of ever using it either.

From the small bits I've used, it's very similar to Java but with enough subtle changes to make me annoyed I'm not using Java. But then I spend all my time writing Java and wishing I could do C++ style stuff, and vice versa. Grin

Quote
C and C++, I don't even differentiate between them. 

I wish people would. I'm fed up of reading "C++" code with is little more than C code with a few classes used as namespaces. Good C++ code seems to be as rare as hens teeth (<flamebait>maybe because all the good OO people have given up on C++</flamebait>)

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Offline aldacron

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« Reply #24 - Posted 2007-01-04 09:25:09 »

C and Java are well in my comfort zone (D as well, but it's not on the list). I suppose I could count C++, but I'm a "C with classes" type, so I avoid a lot of stuff like the STL, templates, and other C++ nastiness. C#, PHP, Python, and VB I have a passing familiarity with, but I can't  write anything useful with them without some sort of documentation at hand. I just have very little need for anything other than Java and C.
Offline Breakfast

Senior Devvie




for great justice!


« Reply #25 - Posted 2007-01-04 14:56:21 »

Quote
Lisp?  Why bother?
Because the consensus appears to be that functional programming is so different from procedural or object-oriented programming that it is worth learning to do because it will teach you new ways of thinking that will follow through into all the other languages you study. Every language does this to a degree, because they all do slightly different things well and sometimes seeing what one language does well gives you ideas for how you can do something similar in other languages. This is generally why I think it is worth learning other languages. In The Pragmatic Programmer which is probably the best book on programming as a craft that I have read, they recommend learning a new language every year, just to keep your mind in good shape.

From time to time I get the Paul Graham book out of the book case to see if I can understand it yet. Currently I can't, but I'm getting closer...
Offline kevglass

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« Reply #26 - Posted 2007-01-04 15:17:42 »

The Pragmatic Programmer - is a great book recommendation. I've just finished it for the second time (just before returning to blighty). Thought at times I think it's less than pragmatic - a langauge a year! How would you find time to learn anything properly Smiley

Kev

Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #27 - Posted 2007-01-04 18:34:35 »

Because the consensus appears to be that functional programming is so different from procedural or object-oriented programming that it is worth

OK, I don't like LISP at all, so I have to say: when it comes to fn-programming, there's loads of languages out there that are way better than LISP. I'm still fluent in several of them, but I expect vrey few people here will ahve heard of them (although I'd hope at least a few would know ML)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #28 - Posted 2007-01-04 18:54:57 »

In some cases the employer might be right.I learned java before I learned c++ . And it's very hard for me to switch.It seems I'm regressing. No certain api to learn ,too many compilers, so much useless and hard to read code , no portability and probably above all  : no array bounds checking etc. It's probably not very common , but this is how I feel when trying to learn c++.

I have the same experience.  I learned Java first and since then haven't been able to get my head around anything else, even VB was too hard/different. 

So I'm one of those simpletons giving all of you a bad name!  I doubt I'll ever try anything else since Java is big enough to do everything it seems and learning other languages' API's is a large fixed cost that wouldn't be worth it. 

Also, just like how a person will count numbers in his/her mother tongue even though they are in a foreign country and are speaking whatever, a programmer probably thinks in the original language he/she learned.

Keith Tongue

PS:  Ich Liebe Deautschland but German is bloody hard to learn!  And they've made up there own letters, check this out - Ö, Ä,  ß, Ü, µ! 

Offline Orangy Tang

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« Reply #29 - Posted 2007-01-04 19:04:47 »

The Pragmatic Programmer - is a great book recommendation. I've just finished it for the second time (just before returning to blighty). Thought at times I think it's less than pragmatic - a langauge a year! How would you find time to learn anything properly Smiley

Kev

We could do with a book recommendations thread... so here it is.  Grin

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