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  Java OpenGL bindings the illusion  (Read 7068 times)
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Online kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 153
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #30 - Posted 2003-07-27 13:58:40 »

Apologises, I keep forgeting logic and sense has nothing to do with these forums!  Grin

Kev

Archimedes
Guest
« Reply #31 - Posted 2003-07-27 17:04:54 »

Quote

Play some classics and study their requests then think again. Most of the new games, these days, the more graphics they have the more crap they are.

Absolutely true. Most of today's games lack gameplay. The 1000th Egoshooter based on the Quake series - now with pixel shaded environment mapping of the entire game universe in every single cartridge case... ;-) Oh well: you really forget about gameplay when you see this... Don't you? I don't.
Actually I mostly play oldies but goldies on my MAME or SNES because half a dozen of those games are much more fun than most of the modern games I came accross the last years. :-)
Sigh.

However I think there's a big potential in doing many of those classics in a modern way with Jogl for example, but keeping the smart gameplay.
Realonearcade and Garagegames do this in some way.
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #32 - Posted 2003-07-27 19:57:26 »

I don't know if anyone here played Unreal 2 - I only played through the demo level I got on a PC Zone cover disc but good grief it was boring.
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Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #33 - Posted 2003-07-28 10:51:37 »

Yeah, I played Unreal 2, and by God! was it dull. Nearly as boring as Unreal 1.

I'm not sure how it's possible to write a genuinely boring FPS (after all the gameplay was designed in Doom more or less over a decade ago). But they've managed it. Again.

Cas Smiley

Archimedes
Guest
« Reply #34 - Posted 2003-07-28 11:18:49 »

Quote
I don't know if anyone here played Unreal 2 - I only played through the demo level I got on a PC Zone cover disc but good grief it was boring.

Fully ack. I experienced exactly the same.
Archimedes
Guest
« Reply #35 - Posted 2003-07-28 11:21:32 »

Quote
Yeah, I played Unreal 2, and by God! was it dull. Nearly as boring as Unreal 1.

I'm not sure how it's possible to write a genuinely boring FPS (after all the gameplay was designed in Doom more or less over a decade ago). But they've managed it. Again.

Full ack. :-)
And I'm pretty sure Doom3 will become as boring as Doom1 has been: more light, more monsters, more blood, more weapons, more gun cartridges - oh "wow"... where's the game?

My favourite Puzzle Booble easily beats Doom3 from a gameplay point of view. AND I can play it with my friend on the SAME machine. ;-)
Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #36 - Posted 2003-07-28 11:38:57 »

Does anyone consider Id and GT (They are still the makers of unreal aren't they?) makes games anymore? I love when they come out with their next games, because I know someone will make something great out of the engine. I think the moding community is where it's at for these kind of games.

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #37 - Posted 2003-07-28 12:50:34 »

They make some great engines, but since the first Quake where the engine was such a huge step forward that it almost made the game of itself there hasn't been the strong sense of fun about anything single-player from either of those, in my experience.

The engines are very awesome in both cases and in the hands of people like Ion Storm (as they are now, let's just forget the game that must not be named) some amazing things have been done with them.  The thing is that although I don't think people have really noticed games like Deus Ex have actually started to push people's expectations of what you should be able to do in an FPS. You actually think maybe it should be possible to interact with the scenery in more than a button-press ways and that stealth maybe should be possible. I think games like that, which could narrowly be termed RPGs, are actually more of the way forward for first person shooters than most companies making them are aware of.

Funnily enough, the game that reminded me there was fun in first person shooters was Serious Sam, which just did the doom trick of throwing approximately 100000000 monsters at you every ten seconds and the quake trick of having an absolutely kick-ass Co-op mode. Played with a friend over a Lan it was one of the most entertaining few hours of cheap and cheerful pc entertainment I have experienced.
Offline Kevdog

Junior Member





« Reply #38 - Posted 2003-07-29 19:58:20 »

Anyone played Thief 1/2?  Great first person sneakers, where you fail if you kill anyone!  Great fun and great gameplay Cheesy

There are only 10 types of people, those who understand binary and those who don't!
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #39 - Posted 2003-07-30 12:05:39 »

Quote
I don't know if anyone here played Unreal 2 - I only played through the demo level I got on a PC Zone cover disc but good grief it was boring.


I bought U2 cheap. Indeed the game is boring except for a few excellent parts, but the engine is absolutely amazing (and U2 still comes with UnrealEd which was my main reason to buy it). And that's of course its strength. Exactly the same thing was true when the first unreal came out. Boring game, excellent engine.

Quote
Absolutely true. Most of today's games lack gameplay.

Most of any games of any era lack gameplay. Nothing has changed in that. There have always been just a select few excellent games in a wide variety of utter crap. Count the number of arcade games from before 1980 and then count how many were any good.

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Offline Daath

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #40 - Posted 2003-07-30 13:49:54 »

There are zillions of skilled engineers outthere and how many actually create something inovative as a car or plane ? I guess same goes with programmers and games ... I guess it takes huge amnout of luck (besides) skills which are widely spread and can be acquired by traning to do something really new.  Most brilliant  game related ideas "I got" - came from my wife and little guy living across the street I live .....  Grin
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #41 - Posted 2003-07-30 14:10:41 »

After finding stuff like Black and White very compelling and seeing what everyone is saying about HL2 I reckon that anyone can do great graphics now and the next great leap forward will be great AI - not just enemies but underlying economic and storytelling engines that allow games to create their own, truly interactive, plotlines. The possibilities in this direction are so great that they make me want to flip out and wail on my electric guitar.
Offline Daath

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #42 - Posted 2003-07-30 14:38:27 »

AI - that is a most likely next step - and just to reiterate what you've said - possibilities are enormous. I have started lobbying friend of mine who knows that stuff pretty well to start thinking about how to use it in games. But for him games are just ..well....games....  he is teaching AI grad courses at local Uni and dont wanna 'waste his time on childish untertaking" (as he put it)... But soon or later time will prove him wrong - AI usage in games will get big - at least that is what I think.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #43 - Posted 2003-07-31 13:39:08 »

Doom 3 is supposed to have vastly improved monster AI.  That should help the game play, and it will look nice too Smiley.

Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #44 - Posted 2003-07-31 13:54:33 »

I think it's own child will eat it, though - by the time it comes out the point of reference will be Half-life 2 and I'm not sure how beatable that is going to be. The facial expression technology and everything like that on HL2 sound so impressive that unless Doom3 pulls more than some pretty images and monsters that don't get stuck in scenery  it is going to be overshadowed. Fair play, though - ID have ruled the FPS roost for the last 10 years, so it's pretty much someone else's turn by now.
Offline Daath

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #45 - Posted 2003-07-31 13:57:14 »

That sounds good and looking forward to it. But I would hope to have AI applied not only to monsters in game - in general - but to all characters in game. Ultimately <dreammodeon> one would join and have to create allience with other users BUT there would be no way of knowing if there are real or AI driven characters.  One could make meaninfull conversation with such an entity - and would have to figure if that is real person or drone..... now that would make things interesting! .... </dreammodeon>
Offline Daath

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #46 - Posted 2003-07-31 14:01:37 »

BWT -- I guess this thread somehow got morphed in the process as it belongs to AI or Game Design columns  - hope we dont get punished for this  Roll Eyes
Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #47 - Posted 2003-07-31 14:41:13 »

This thread has gone through about 4 topic changes now, heheh.  Grin

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #48 - Posted 2003-07-31 19:45:19 »

Ok back to topic. I think everyone agree that programing shaders is cool. Being able to use the new extensions of OpenGL and DirectX as soon as possible may be a very important factor in game development. Maybe thats why Java3d is not so successful. Being able to work unrestricted like this and work with an api like java3d would be perfect.

Just look at the api features you all know. The scene graph is the least of all. The Behaviors and behavior lod. Behaviors can take advantage of muti-threading if the right machine is available. Unlike others apis with scene graphs java3d api can be traversed in parallel.

If java3d has really failed it's only because this api is too advanced for his time.

Now guys lets look at one of very aclaimed rpg like Morrowind. It hardly suports any level of paralelysm its AI is mostly script base and uses the most basic algorithms for path finding like those you guys see in gamasutra LOL. It lacks a proper scene graph to make complex lod schemes like those seen in Gothic. It lacks behavior lod like in java3d. Still the engine can draw high resolution textures like hell and that can make an average game look excellent.

Its true that high-res textures and polygons are critical, but if the player gets something he has never seen before like a new way to lod terrain or advanced AI interaction then the differences between java3d and a c++ api will be much smaller.

In short there is still great games that can be build with java3d but such games would have to take advantage of java3d and use other entertaining features other than high-quality textures. If I didn't believe in java3d I would probably be programming in Visual C++ and DirectX, which bluntly speaking, sucks very much.  Grin
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #49 - Posted 2003-08-01 08:00:48 »

And there  I have been quoting Morrowind's use of the Netimmerse engine as an example of the practical use of a Scenegraph API in a top quality game...
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #50 - Posted 2003-08-03 11:01:47 »

Quote
And there  I have been quoting Morrowind's use of the Netimmerse engine as an example of the practical use of a Scenegraph API in a top quality game...


Believe me, the reason of choice for NetImmerse in Morrowind is speed and rendering capabilites. Gothic 2 is more of a pratical use of a scene graph in my opinion.

Morrowind uses a plain array to represent terrain and a system of interior/exterior cells. 9 exterior cells for the player location and surrounding area and interior cells for the insides.

Thats simple and fast but ... you can't sneak peek in a window to look at an interior. Because they use an plain array for the terrain that (no compression at all) the landscape size you see is the absolute maximum without needing a 1Ghz file just for terrain data.

If you are thinking of the last version of NetImmerse now called Gamebrio.

http://www.ndl.com/

Thats very impressive but game coders hardly every use all the features in a licensed engine.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #51 - Posted 2003-08-04 00:42:03 »

Quote
[...]The engines are very awesome in both cases and in the hands of people like Ion Storm (as they are now, let's just forget the game that must not be named) some amazing things have been done with them.[...]


http://www.penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=1999-11-22&res=l Grin

I've done a lot of stuff with the Q3 engine (and btw it's written in C not C++). I'm really looking forward (ab)using the upcoming Doom3 engine (wich is - btw - written in C++).

And about AI... the bots in Q3 are incredible stupid... I had to use alot of strange tricks to "teach" 'em some simple trickjumps. Well... they can't do basic timing... or predict rockets (well they did that for awhile but it got broken (and it's now fixed again in the latest cpma release))... they can't dodge and so many other things.

Well some things are kinda funny solved. They can't "hear"... but if you try to shoot 'em in the back and miss they'll turn around and shoot at you. Heh... that looks kinda "realistic" isn't it? Well infact it's done quite simple if you fire your weapon within a specific range the bot will immediatly know where you are (and not that "realistic" - he will also know if you are on his team).

Sorry for re-re-re-hijacking the thread Roll Eyes

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #52 - Posted 2003-08-12 14:42:25 »

The reason Morrowind used NDL was because it worked well, it has tools that integrated with 3DStudio MAX - Bethesdas artists package of choice, it had relatively good support, it allowed them to focus on game development and not engine development. In short it was a good workflow for them. On top of that it also allowed then to do an XBox port in parallel with the PC development. It also utilized some reasonably open hooks for plugging in shaders.

Beyond that I will not comment as I may still be under NDA.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline wiesi

Senior Newbie




Java rulez!


« Reply #53 - Posted 2003-09-02 08:43:57 »

In my opinion Java3D suckz!!!

JOGL is much easier to use and faster than J3D!
And the runtime is only about 0.5 MB!

WiESi
Online kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 153
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #54 - Posted 2003-09-02 08:58:33 »

Wow, its always nice to see a carefully thought out opinion and so elegantly put.  Grin

Jogl and Java3D are suited to different roles. Jogl is good for high performance, Java3D (generic scenegraphs generally) is good for rapid development.

KeV(z)

Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #55 - Posted 2003-09-02 10:53:35 »

Apparently expertise is inversely proportional to the number of posts someone has made. We don't have a chance...
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