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  Cheated by "the industry"  (Read 7374 times)
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Offline thiagosc2

Senior Newbie





« Posted 2006-11-17 12:55:00 »

Have you ever read a review from a game and when you played it it was all disapointment?
Have you ever asked yourself if the reviewers are trying to sell you something instead of "reviewing"?

I have recently purchased Half-Life 2, collectors edition, to celebrate my acquisition of a brand new machine. According to what I read in the web it should be the greatest game of all times, right? Wrong, but surely it is the most unstable one.

The sound of the game constantly stutters and it crashes all the time when saving. Too bad it's too late now, I should have done more research before buying it. It's not difficult to see on the web a lot of people having these problems, so if I only had Googled a little before buying I could have avoided wasting money in this crap.

As a software developer I am amazed how certain things don't work. For example, if you are writing a file when "saving the game", wouldn't it be easy to just report the whatever error happened to the user instead of crashing miserably? What's the difficulty in having a popup window saying "Error while saving: <exception goes here>" ? Is catching an exception too hard?

The funny thing it's the support has asked me basicaly to replace all drivers, check the memory (yes, it's a brand new machine), and do lots of other stuff while I have absolutely no problem with any other application, including other games such as The Need For Speed: Most Wanted. I think they are using the strategy of asking ludicrous stuff in order to get rid of me, so if I say anything again they ask "Have you completed the previous steps?...".
Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 52



« Reply #1 - Posted 2006-11-17 13:23:45 »

Actually the HL2 _is_ a great game and being a software developer myself, you can have hard time figuring out such bugs when you cannot reproduce them...

Also that other games do not crash might not be an indication that everything on your system is OK. Especially if you have a low budget motherboard you could have a lot of problems that only occour, if a software stesses your system in special way (like HL2 might do).

The sound stuttering is afaik a known bug caused by texture thrashing which "overloads" the system bus when swapping a huge amount of textures to the GFX card (something like that) and theres a patch to reduce the effect. Also having a card with more memory (how much do you have?) and reducing texture-details might help. Details

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline Evil-Devil

Senior Duke


Medals: 2


Fir Tree Master


« Reply #2 - Posted 2006-11-17 13:39:56 »

Is there no Log file for HL2 that documents the crashes? Because other engines give back the exception and log it. THe exception window is mostly to small to display the full exception stack. Seems they don't know how to implement a scrollbar...
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Offline thiagosc2

Senior Newbie





« Reply #3 - Posted 2006-11-17 14:25:48 »

Whatever it is, the system catching error situations and reporting them is the very least we can expect from "the industry". What a piece of crap. If you haven't bought this thing yet and plan to do it then be prepared to find very stupid bugs.

My machine is a Dell one, with a Core 2 Duo processor, a X3000 IGP, 2GB of RAM. The funny thing is that it runs Soldier of Fortune 2 , which uses the Quake 3 engine, at maximum quality with very high FPS rates. This doesn't show "how powerful" it is because SoF2 is way too old, but it shows this thing works!
Offline OverKill

Junior Duke




Java games rock!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2006-11-17 15:01:56 »

NeedForSpeed:MostWanted works good?
THAT game was definetly not worth its money. Constant lag problems and strange collisions.
Offline thiagosc2

Senior Newbie





« Reply #5 - Posted 2006-11-17 15:28:36 »

NeedForSpeed:MostWanted works good?
THAT game was definetly not worth its money. Constant lag problems and strange collisions.

I guess that justifies the fact that Half-Life 2 sucks. Smiley It's not the first time game websites fool me. Another notorious crap made by "the industry"© was Halo, the first. The most incredibly hyped game, when in fact all it had was the same old first person shooter crap, a third class scifi story (those types that have a weird name every five words or so in order to look "alien": "the people of blaaargh have been at war with the evil bleeergh and his army blorphx from the planet waercluft..."), and very annoying enemies that looked and sounded exactly the same.

But I have to disagree, I think the gameplay of NFS is really good and the game is fun, especially for the GTA-like way of playing.
Offline Jamison

Junior Duke




We're all idiots in one way or another.


« Reply #6 - Posted 2006-11-17 15:36:06 »

Older games do not work on any video card, even if it is new. Usually in the README it will tell you what video cards are supported, what cards cause problems, and what cards are not supported. For example, in the game Metal Gear Solid 2: Substance, there is a texture problem with every GeForce card (I have had the problem, and by googling, I've heard many other people have too). However, it's easily fixable with a patch. I suggesting browsing the README file and looking to see if HL2 has problems with your hardware, if it does, look for a patch.

And one more thing about HL2 being rated, qoute "the greatest game of all times," or Halo being rated, qoute "The most incredibly hyped game." This is the reviewers oppinion, not YOUR oppinion! If the reviewer likes First Person Shooters and you hate them, he rates Halo 2 as "best game of the year." That's his oppinion on what the best game of the year is, however, you may think a Need for Speed game is the best. Personally, I don't think there can ever be a "best game," everyone has there own oppinions on what the best game is for them, but it can't be the best game for everyone.

Quote from: OverKill
NeedForSpeed:MostWanted works good?
THAT game was definetly not worth its money. Constant lag problems and strange collisions.
I have Need for Speed Most Wanted and I have NEVER had a single problem with it - I get a constanst 60 FPS. Like I said, it could be your hardware. The game may not support what you currently have.

I don't like you. Check out my site Smiley www.gamedevforums.com
Offline jwebb

Innocent Bystander





« Reply #7 - Posted 2006-11-17 16:03:34 »

I'm sorry, but HL2 really isn't a good example of a crappily made game - I could provide you a list if you like.  I'm not a fan of the game, but the demo ran beautifully on my sub par system. 

You obviously aren't very familiar with computer gaming.  When you listed your computers specs, you didn't even mention your video card, which with a game like HL2 is more important than your processors and memory (not that those don't matter...), not to mention that you wasted your money for an overpriced and overhyped Dell( this is what you should be complaining about).  New games are developed with the newest video and sound drivers - usually they are faster and perform better - they are trying to provide you with a better product.  Is is so much that they require you to go get said drivers?  They can't provide drivers for every possibility and fit your game on that disk.

I agree not providing feedback can be annoying, but I'm pretty sure you can look in the log for that feedback...

I'm not defending the state of much of computer gaming, but most of the things you are complaining about have reasons.  At least with a computer game, you can get a patch if its buggy and it likely will repair most of your problems unlike consoles.
Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 52



« Reply #8 - Posted 2006-11-17 16:10:50 »

Whatever it is, the system catching error situations and reporting them is the very least we can expect from "the industry". What a piece of crap. If you haven't bought this thing yet and plan to do it then be prepared to find very stupid bugs.
A crash is most likely not caused by an exception, but by an access violation or something like that and is _not_ catchable, so this is (problably) no stupid bug like forgetting to write a line of code. Keep in mind that sometimes even the java VM exits with a core dump from thin air...

Have you read the link I provided with suggestions how to fix the stuttering? Any success?

Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #9 - Posted 2006-11-17 19:11:28 »

Have you ever read a review from a game and when you played it it was all disapointment?
Have you ever asked yourself if the reviewers are trying to sell you something instead of "reviewing"?

Yes, but that isn't your problem here. Many people agree that reviewers are lying scum (everyone I know in the industry deliberately does NOT use any particular review to decide what to buy - at the very least, they use metacritic (if lazy) or read 3 or 4 reviews from radically different companies.

Quote
As a software developer I am amazed how certain things don't work. For example, if you are writing a file when "saving the game", wouldn't it be easy to just report the whatever error happened to the user instead of crashing miserably? What's the difficulty in having a popup window saying "Error while saving: <exception goes here>" ? Is catching an exception too hard?

That's why they should all be using java to write their games. No joke. That's the kind of thing where C (and, by extension - sadly - C++) is bloody awful, but java radically improves the situation.

NB: this would be incredibly good in java if they could just fix that stack overflow exception / out-of-memory error bug from Java 1.0.x which is STILL in java 5 (and 6 IIRC) such that it loses the root cause of the exception, because it's run out of memory. The one that Cas and I pointed out to Jeff and he said he'd ask about, IIRC. I've since seen C++ implementations that guard against this exact problem in the way Cas and I suggested - reserving at startup a small chunk of memory for the memory handler for this particular class of error.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline thiagosc2

Senior Newbie





« Reply #10 - Posted 2006-11-17 19:42:10 »

I'm sorry, but HL2 really isn't a good example of a crappily made game - I could provide you a list if you like.  I'm not a fan of the game, but the demo ran beautifully on my sub par system. 

It runs "beautifully" here too, high FPS, until.... it crashes.

You obviously aren't very familiar with computer gaming.  When you listed your computers specs, you didn't even mention your video card, which with a game like HL2 is more important than your processors and memory (not that those don't matter...),..

I did mention it. Besides, what the graphics card has to do with "stuttering problems" and "crashes when saving games"? If you could provide the logic you used to get to such conclusion it would be enlightening.

... not to mention that you wasted your money for an overpriced and overhyped Dell( this is what you should be complaining about).

Half-Life 2 engine is buggy, the evidence is the load of such problems players have been facing since its release. Just Google for it.

Besides, I have no complaints about Dell. No problems so far, everything working fine. The time of delivery from clicking on the website to getting the computer at my home, excellent. I am willing to pay more for a good service.

  New games are developed with the newest video and sound drivers - usually they are faster and perform better - they are trying to provide you with a better product.  Is is so much that they require you to go get said drivers?  They can't provide drivers for every possibility and fit your game on that disk.

They could check if certain operations have completed successfully, couldn't they? And they could report to the user of possible failures, couldn't they? Crashing equals shit in the code. This is not only about gaming, it's a matter of well designed software. If that crap were close to be well designed it would at least not fail miserably.

The problem with "the industry"© is that "PC gaming" is some kind of synonym to "put together whatever undebugged untested piece of trash and that will be fine, if it crashes we can always blame the user".

The suggestions they gave were completely pathetic. All other applications and games are working, and the problem is the computer? I don't think so.

I'm not defending the state of much of computer gaming, but most of the things you are complaining about have reasons.  At least with a computer game, you can get a patch if its buggy and it likely will repair most of your problems unlike consoles.

Wouldn't that Steam spyware they install together with HL2 be the responsible for installing updates and patches? How many years have HL2 been release now? Haven't they patched this crap yet?

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #11 - Posted 2006-11-17 21:31:08 »

Well,  I'm not in the position to completely defend Valve, but your anger may be a bit misplaced. In the PC wolrd is is nigh impossible to test for every single config.  I have run HL2 on 3 different systems, all built using different platforms and never had a single problem ever.


Quote

They could check if certain operations have completed successfully, couldn't they? And they could report to the user of possible failures, couldn't they? Crashing equals shit in the code. This is not only about gaming, it's a matter of well designed software. If that crap were close to be well designed it would at least not fail miserably.

Crashing equals shit in *what* code? Perhaps the drivers you have?  Look, sloppy is sloppy but I have to side with Valve on this one so far.

Quote
Wouldn't that Steam spyware they install together with HL2 be the responsible for installing updates and patches? How many years have HL2 been release now? Haven't they patched this crap yet?

Well, this one is just plain false.  Steam is not spyware.  Looking at your system specs, your graphics card is an on-board Intel chipset.  Horrible, unstable and no where near the solidity or speed of nVidia or ATI.  After reading that both your audio and video are on board, I'd bet a dollar that your problems are due to resource conflict or drivers for the video card.  My suggestion would be to go get a real video accelerator and give it a shot again Smiley

-Chris

P.S. Now that I think about it, it probably IS your video card.  Read about the "amazing" X3000 IGP: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=1934968

Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 188
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #12 - Posted 2006-11-17 21:39:46 »

It'd be nice however if on shit cards where the game isn't likely to work there was a game message saying - "don't run on this crap, get a real card" or something Smiley

Kev

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
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Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #13 - Posted 2006-11-17 22:10:40 »

Agreed, sort of.  Then you get into the realm of accusing game companies of pimping one manufacturer over the other.

-Chris

Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 188
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #14 - Posted 2006-11-17 22:14:17 »

Ah, it doesn't have to say "get a nice new NVidia card" though maybe it should Smiley

Still, it'd be nice if when you tried a demo of a game, if that worked on your machine the full game was guaranteed to work - on my old shit laptop I can think of few games I demoed, worked, bought - broke. If the demo just looked at your hardware and said "Hey, you're unlikely to get the best experience with this hardware" it'd be awful friendly.

Kev


Offline ryanm

Senior Duke


Projects: 1
Exp: 15 years


Used to be bleb


« Reply #15 - Posted 2006-11-17 22:33:52 »

If the demo just looked at your hardware and said "Hey, you're unlikely to get the best experience with this hardware" it'd be awful friendly.

Recent Valve games actually do this. The Lost Coast HDR demo and Episode 1 both moaned at me for having an apparently slow processor. I wouldn't be surprised if they did the same for memory and video card.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 188
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #16 - Posted 2006-11-17 22:41:08 »

Ah, well thats brilliant then. The OP shouldn't ever have the issue again Smiley

Kev

Offline thiagosc2

Senior Newbie





« Reply #17 - Posted 2006-11-18 00:17:25 »

Well,  I'm not in the position to completely defend Valve, but your anger may be a bit misplaced. In the PC wolrd is is nigh impossible to test for every single config.  I have run HL2 on 3 different systems, all built using different platforms and never had a single problem ever.

This is not about not working, this about crashing with no explanation. If they are looking for some resource but that's non existent why not to report it? If some error where found during the execution of something, why not to tell the user?

Reporting the errors it finds it's the minimum to expect from software.

Well, this one is just plain false.  Steam is not spyware.  Looking at your system specs, your graphics card is an on-board Intel chipset.  Horrible, unstable and no where near the solidity or speed of nVidia or ATI.  After reading that both your audio and video are on board, I'd bet a dollar that your problems are due to resource conflict or drivers for the video card.  My suggestion would be to go get a real video accelerator and give it a shot again Smiley

Well, I never said my sound card is onboard. My soundcard is a Sound Blaster X-Fi Extreme Music, I think this is good enough, isn't it? The only thing onboard is the GPU and even so it is hardware accelerated.

Although I was suspicious in the beginning of it, I had no choice but this one (I buy a decent one later), but I have to say, it runs at a very high FPS SoF2 at 1024x768 with all options turned on to the maximum. It runs NFS Most Wanted. SoF2 is not new, but the card is definetely accelerating the stuff in here.

How do you explain that? Just show us the logic.

P.S. Now that I think about it, it probably IS your video card.  Read about the "amazing" X3000 IGP: http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=31&threadid=1934968

Blah, blah, nonsense. The drivers for this IGP were a piece of shit when it was released in August, and you can find a lot of fanboys posts all over 3D forums bashing it in the constructively "nViDiA Rulz" style. Some features were not enabled, but now they are. This was not designed to match a high end card, but NFS is running, and running fine

Again, how do you explain that? Just tell us. And please tell us what "saving the game", which is my problem, has to do with a graphics card? How the process of saving your progress in the game to HD uses the video board?

How do I see the FPS rate in HL2 for posting a screenshot here?

The funny thing is that I tried to run NFS in my laptop from work, it has a ATI Radeon 9000 Mobility, that runs Guild Wars, for the sake of an example, nicely, and it had some glitches in the graphics! Funny isn't it? This one runs where some others of some brand required tweaking the options or installing some patches.

As I said, a piece of shit engine + hype-creating media = Half-Life 2 and the other bunch of badly written software.
Offline thiagosc2

Senior Newbie





« Reply #18 - Posted 2006-11-18 00:20:09 »

It'd be nice however if on shit cards where the game isn't likely to work there was a game message saying - "don't run on this crap, get a real card" or something Smiley

The funny thing is that SoF 2 gives a message about not enough resources and asks if I want to continue anyway. And it works! Smiley It's ironic, isn't it? The game that complains about not detecting a video board with enough memory runs, the one that doesn't crashes.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #19 - Posted 2006-11-18 00:38:38 »

Crashing equals shit in *what* code? Perhaps the drivers you have?  Look, sloppy is sloppy but I have to side with Valve on this one so far.

Seconded; windows (blame microsoft!) is very good at letting dodgy drivers screw up stuff.

Not that it's easy, of course, but if you were to blame anyone about lack of transparency in crashes, you should probably blame them - apps usually dont even have acecss to find out why/what in a driver just went titsup.

Quote
Well, this one is just plain false.  Steam is not spyware.  Looking at your system specs, your graphics card is an on-board Intel chipset.  Horrible, unstable and no where near the solidity or speed of nVidia or ATI.

The OP should go read Mark Rein's excellent speech at Develop this year. After half an hour of normal, boring, keynote (and a demo of Gears of War), he clicked to the next slide, and without warning the title flashed up in bold:

WHY INTEL IS SINGLE-HANDEDLY DESTROYING THE GAMES INDUSTRY ON PC

...and went on to lambast the crap intel chipsets as being the single biggest threat to the commercial games industry.

I believe there are transcripts out there on the web somewhere. It was fun. Especially when Jason chipped in (no fight, sadly Sad).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #20 - Posted 2006-11-18 00:40:40 »

It'd be nice however if on shit cards where the game isn't likely to work there was a game message saying - "don't run on this crap, get a real card" or something Smiley

q3atest, anyone?

Just a pity id went down the drain and lost the will / people who were able to make good games Sad. I remember when there was serious debate over UT vs. Quake, and people thought epic really were the underdog with little chance of success, that they'd get buried. Ahem. See how far id hath fallen Sad.

(although TBH I think epic deserved their success - UT *still* rocks, even after the cynical money-making and poor releases of 2003/04/05)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
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Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #21 - Posted 2006-11-19 02:36:45 »

[
The OP should go read Mark Rein's excellent speech at Develop this year. After half an hour of normal, boring, keynote (and a demo of Gears of War), he clicked to the next slide, and without warning the title flashed up in bold:

WHY INTEL IS SINGLE-HANDEDLY DESTROYING THE GAMES INDUSTRY ON PC

...and went on to lambast the crap intel chipsets as being the single biggest threat to the commercial games industry.

I believe there are transcripts out there on the web somewhere. It was fun. Especially when Jason chipped in (no fight, sadly Sad).

Funny you bring this up.  I met up with Mark during booth setup and as we were walking the floor together, we hit the Intel booth.  He launched into his tirade, flinging 4 letter words at the top of his lungs while the Intel people were within earshot.  Makes you blush, but he has a point.

-Chris

Offline thiagosc2

Senior Newbie





« Reply #22 - Posted 2006-11-19 04:48:50 »

Funny you bring this up.  I met up with Mark during booth setup and as we were walking the floor together, we hit the Intel booth.  He launched into his tirade, flinging 4 letter words at the top of his lungs while the Intel people were within earshot.  Makes you blush, but he has a point.

I think this notion of "Intel destroying PC gaming industry" is nonsense. Intel is just providing what its clients want. Not every single person on the planet is a game aficionado geek that buys a new PC every year just to keep up with the latest eye candy.

Let's think, they (the makers of HL2) make money developing complex middleware and licensing it to other softhouses to produce games? And that requires the consumers to have the very latest hardware (a $10000+ PC)? And how's that Intel's fault? If I were the owner of some company I would go where the consumers are, just a thought... either abandoning PC or supporting the "shitty Intel IGPs".

And since Java isn't the hottest thing on consoles, if I were a Java game developer I would also worry about making my games to run in these "shitty boards" as well.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 188
Projects: 24
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Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #23 - Posted 2006-11-19 06:44:38 »

Quote
And since Java isn't the hottest thing on consoles, if I were a Java game developer I would also worry about making my games to run in these "shitty boards" as well.

Never a truer word written here. The cards are what the cards are. We should write for the market - not what we *think* the market should be.

Kev

Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #24 - Posted 2006-11-19 07:39:38 »

See this article for some stats on market shares for graphics cards as at the end of 2005:  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdext/is_200602/ai_n16043801.  I can't get the original source of the stats since their reports are not free.

Currently Intel, ATI and Nvidia have about equal shares of 30%, but in the past Intel had a much higher share so most PCs have those 'shitty intel boards'. 

Another slightly older report, for the end of 2004: http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20050728052358.html
Says that stand-alone (non-integrated) chips on desktop computers are shared about 50-50 ATI vs Nvidia,
'High-end chips' are 75% NVidia, and
Laptops are 50% intel graphics chips.

On finding these stats, I was disappointed since I have heard that OGL doesn't run well on most boards/drivers unless its an Nvidia card.  However, if quake has used OGL in the past, does that mean that most/all graphics cards or windows computers support some minimum version of OGL?  If so, why do the devs using JOGL have so many compatibility problems?

Keith

Offline Orangy Tang

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Monkey for a head


« Reply #25 - Posted 2006-11-19 12:23:54 »

I think this notion of "Intel destroying PC gaming industry" is nonsense. Intel is just providing what its clients want. Not every single person on the planet is a game aficionado geek that buys a new PC every year just to keep up with the latest eye candy.
They're not just cheap cards though, the biggest problem IMHO is that the drivers are really buggy, and tend to crash in uncatchable ways with no way of preventing it.

Annoyingly places like Dell sell machines with ridiculously fast CPUs, lots of memory and then go and shove one of those chips in to keep costs down. Worse, they'll lable it a "high end gaming pc", the buyer doesn't know any better and we end up with lots of "why doesn't you game work on my uber pc! I paid lots of money for it, it must be good!".

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline blahblahblahh

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Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #26 - Posted 2006-11-19 13:03:07 »

I think this notion of "Intel destroying PC gaming industry" is nonsense. Intel is just providing what its clients want. Not every single person on the planet is a game aficionado geek that buys a new PC every year just to keep up with the latest eye candy.

Then, simply put, you should go read the transcripts of what he's saying and think about it until you've understood the points contained therein. His key point - the one that underlies everything - you don't even mention. Although you do mention something which *supports his argument*, amusingly Smiley.

Summarizing poorly: when you make a game, you have to compete. Competing means equivalent-to-your-competitors': graphics, gameplay, quality, depth, etc. Doing this cost money proportionally. You have to provide reasonable chance of recouping that money and making *more* than it cost, otherwise you will not be in business for long. The PC games business is competing with the console games business. There are > 120 million playstations out there, every one of which has a high chance of buying any game you put out there. There are approximately 900 million PCs out there, which on average each have a much lower chance of buying a game you put out there. Intel graphics chips account for between 20% and 60% of the section of the PC market which has a high-ish chance of buying games (according to games industry reports and internal marketing-research depts). To compete against consoles, you literally cannot afford to not work on intel chipsets.

However, each year intel chipsets increase in performance by around 5%.

Each year (averaged), console chipsets increase in performance by around 20%.

Each year, non-intel gfx cards increase in performance by around 25%.

So, if Intel stopped selling crap, the PC games business would be slightly outstripping the console games business in performance (and hence geting the cost for writing PC games down a lot, making them a lot more easy to develop and sell profitably).

Instead, Intel's sales are gradually destroying the PC games business.

I'd hope Mark would find that a not-too-bad summary, but errors and ommissions my own.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #27 - Posted 2006-11-19 13:14:20 »

See this article for some stats on market shares for graphics cards as at the end of 2005:  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_zdext/is_200602/ai_n16043801.  I can't get the original source of the stats since their reports are not free.

Currently Intel, ATI and Nvidia have about equal shares of 30%, but in the past Intel had a much higher share so most PCs have those 'shitty intel boards'. 

Be really, really careful here - the report is not clear, but the following quote from that article suggests you've misread it (I read it the same way myself, first time)

Quote
Intel's highest market share (in dollars)

...since the average cost of an nv or ati card is higher than for an intel card, this means the quote:

Quote
Measured in units, Intel still holds a declining but still commanding lead over the rest of the industry, as its low-cost chipsets can be found in most PCs. Earlier this week, JPR released data that showed that Intel's unit share had slipped from 61 percent to 50 percent from the third to fourth quarter of 2005 in integrated graphics cards.

...does NOT mean "intel had 61% of new PC's, before people upgraded with slot-in cards" (as I first read it, because that's what we all care about), but in fact means "intel had 61% of the market" (in the terms that we count "market" - because we're counting "installed user base" whereas they are counting "money in intel's pocket").

I would also point out that of the people who upgrade by purchasing an add-on card they are (guesstimate) probably more likely to do so on a non-intel integrated graphics, because they're probably buying a better-quality mobo in the first place. So, it would not be unreasonable to conclude that intel has very close to 60% market share right now. This is a figure I've seen people like Mark throwing around based on market reports they've done themselves or bought.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 188
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #28 - Posted 2006-11-19 13:22:58 »

While I can see the logic in the Intel argument - it also does sound a bit bobbins doesn't it? I mean, the point of this thread is that the *big* games arn't intended to be run on Intel chipsets - they arn't properly tested on them and no dispensation is made for people running on them. They just stick a Required System panel on the box that says Nvidia or ATI card. So the cost of development and testing argument doesn't ring true to me.

I also would think that the problem between PC gaming performance and console performance is more to do with the fact that you can buy the complete console for the price of an up to date graphics card. Thats never going to help a platform compete is it?

Kev "Intel saved my life" Glass

Offline Jamison

Junior Duke




We're all idiots in one way or another.


« Reply #29 - Posted 2006-11-19 13:28:25 »

Instead, Intel's sales are gradually destroying the PC games business.
How can one company's sales destroy the PC gaming industry? That makes utterly no sense. I'm not saying I'm siding with Intel or Dell, I actually prefer nVidia.

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