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  Java on Playstation 3  (Read 27936 times)
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Offline erikd

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« Reply #60 - Posted 2008-09-04 16:38:33 »

That sounds very cool. Did you do any benchmarks or can you tell me how fast it is compared to a PC? Is there that 64 MB limitation like in Applet mode?

I didn't do any real benchmarking, but emulating and displaying one frame of pacman takes about 3ms (it sleeps 13ms every frame to make it run at approximately the correct speed).
The good part is is that it also scales the image to 1080p without any apparent speed loss.

Regarding memory, I have the feeling that there is a memory limitation (I'm guessing that's the reason the heavy to emulate games don't work), but I'm not sure what that is exactly. I have to do some more testing.

Offline kappa
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« Reply #61 - Posted 2008-09-04 16:50:21 »

came across this tutorial for installing the BD-J SDK, might be useful?
http://www.ps3news.com/forums/ps3-guides-tutorials/how-install-minimal-bd-j-sdk-ps3-100246.html
Offline erikd

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« Reply #62 - Posted 2008-09-04 17:30:41 »

Thanks, but I was using that already to get JEmu2 to PS3  Smiley

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Offline erikd

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« Reply #63 - Posted 2008-09-05 12:45:58 »

I've done some more testing and as it turns out, BDJ on PS3 is not a real performance beast after all...

For example, the Sega Master System emulator runs at full speed, but barely, where I can easily run a couple of them at once on my PC. The pacman arcade emulator is a really optimized-to-the-bone driver so that was why it was running quite fast.
A (very) wild guess would be that BDJ on PS3 runs at a comparable speed to, say, a JRE on a 300-400MHz PC.

There also is another issue that I'm encountering: BDJ's framerate seems to be 24/25 fps. Even though the emulator renders 60 frames per second, I'm not seeing all of them actually displayed, so things don't appear as smoothly as they do on a PC. This might have something to do with BDJ having to sync with an actual Bluray video, but I'm not sure.
I also didn't yet figure out a way to do proper vsyncing, so there's quite some visible tearing especially in scrolling games.

On a more positive note, image blitting seems quite fast and especially scaled image blitting seems even faster than on my PC.
These emulators render everything in a raw pixel array and your average game typically blits images, so I still think BDJ on PS3 is quite usable for games, if not all types of games.

Offline gouessej

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« Reply #64 - Posted 2008-09-05 21:04:11 »

I've done some more testing and as it turns out, BDJ on PS3 is not a real performance beast after all...

...
These emulators render everything in a raw pixel array and your average game typically blits images, so I still think BDJ on PS3 is quite usable for games, if not all types of games.
Then, for the moment, I assume it would be stupid to invest some time to port a FPS in Java to PS3, am I wrong?

Offline princec

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« Reply #65 - Posted 2008-09-06 00:01:50 »

I got Alien Flux running OK on 300MHz Celerons so that's promising I suppose...

Cas Smiley

Offline erikd

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« Reply #66 - Posted 2008-09-07 15:21:45 »

I suppose you still can do a lot with the available performance, but the biggest problem of all is the controls: You only have directional buttons and 2 action buttons available, and the worst part is that java only registers one directional button at a time (so diagonal movement is just impossible)...   Sad
It can however register a directional button and an action button at the same time; it seems the restriction is only with the directional buttons.

Maybe something like Titan Attacks could work on PS3, but not any other game from puppygames. An FPS is not even worth considering I guess.

Offline princec

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« Reply #67 - Posted 2008-09-07 23:43:34 »

300MHz is easily fast enough to do Quake-2 like performance in Java I think. Only way to find out is to try it...

Cas Smiley

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« Reply #68 - Posted 2008-09-08 00:46:40 »

I suppose you still can do a lot with the available performance, but the biggest problem of all is the controls: You only have directional buttons and 2 action buttons available, and the worst part is that java only registers one directional button at a time (so diagonal movement is just impossible)...   Sad
It can however register a directional button and an action button at the same time; it seems the restriction is only with the directional buttons.

Maybe something like Titan Attacks could work on PS3, but not any other game from puppygames. An FPS is not even worth considering I guess.

Sigh, that sounds like J2ME all over again =/

Embedded Java==big mistake.

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Offline erikd

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« Reply #69 - Posted 2008-09-08 11:19:39 »

300MHz is easily fast enough to do Quake-2 like performance in Java I think. Only way to find out is to try it...

Maybe a low-res software-rendered Quake2-like thing is possible, but even if someone would be interested in such a thing, I don't see the point when the end result would be near unplayable anyway because of the controls.

Quote
Sigh, that sounds like J2ME all over again =/

Exactly. BDJ is nice for many things but for games the restrictions seem very J2ME-like indeed.

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Offline gouessej

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« Reply #70 - Posted 2008-09-08 13:17:23 »

300MHz is easily fast enough to do Quake-2 like performance in Java I think. Only way to find out is to try it...

Cas Smiley
If you have an access to PSGL, it is possible, otherwise it is not possible and personally, I won't spend some time in doing it if I'm not sure I can use PSGL. Moreover, TUER is obviously worse than Quake 2. Maybe the creators of Jake2 (or the creator of Undead Arena, Night Squad, Futuristic Arenas) would have a chance to do a Quake2-like in Java for PS3.

Offline princec

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« Reply #71 - Posted 2008-09-08 14:39:41 »

Well, quite, it all does depend on having some sort of GL access.

Cas Smiley

Offline kappa
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« Reply #72 - Posted 2008-09-08 15:34:44 »

According to wikipedia BD-J is based on Java 1.3 Shocked, which rules out JNI.

But should be possible to create slower puzzle games like Monkey Island, using FMV backgrounds and stuff. Theres already that game called Dragon Lair that runs on BD-J.
Offline princec

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« Reply #73 - Posted 2008-09-08 17:12:33 »

1.3 doesn't rule out JNI, but it does rule out Buffer access which is a bit of a pain.

Cas Smiley

Offline erikd

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« Reply #74 - Posted 2008-09-08 17:21:12 »

Quote
According to wikipedia BD-J is based on Java 1.3, which rules out JNI.
No, JNI was there long before 1.3 (IIRC it was there since the beginning?)
Maybe you're confusing JNI with native buffers (which were introduced in java 1.4, and heavily used in LWJGL)?

Quote
If you have an access to PSGL, it is possible, otherwise it is not possible and personally, I won't spend some time in doing it if I'm not sure I can use PSGL. Moreover, TUER is obviously worse than Quake 2. Maybe the creators of Jake2 (or the creator of Undead Arena, Night Squad, Futuristic Arenas) would have a chance to do a Quake2-like in Java for PS3.
Quote
Well, quite, it all does depend on having some sort of GL access.

Has anyone been listening? Roll Eyes
Talking about GL access and first person shooters is really irrelevant without even having proper controller support.

I think the bottom line is that BDJ is obviously not meant for any serious gaming. You can squeeze some game play out of it, but only if it doesn't depend too much on proper controls. Like board games, casual games, card games, that kind of thing.

For more serious gaming, I guess the way to go would be to get OpenJDK running on PS3 with the devkit.
Who knows, a great java game that would make a great fit for PSN might get Sony interested enough to support the idea of java by donating a devkit to whoever is going to get OpenJDK running on PS3? It would at least be good propaganda for Sony against the wild spread idea that PS3 is too hard to develop for.
I still think puppygames would make a really great fit on PSN and would probably do great there... And perhaps Tribal Trouble too. (hint hint  Wink)

Until then, it's probably a better idea to experiment with Linux and the IBM JRE to see what java on PS3 can be capable of.

Offline bienator

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« Reply #75 - Posted 2008-09-08 17:32:05 »

Has anyone been listening? Roll Eyes
Talking about GL access and first person shooters is really irrelevant without even having proper controller support.
yes but what is the showstopper which prevents popper controller support? Is it restricted by design (api) or is it just a RFE away from better controller access (you said something like only one axis at once...)?

I can think of harder to solve problems Wink (like porting the OpenJDK VM to the PS3 in a master thesis)

Offline kappa
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« Reply #76 - Posted 2008-09-08 17:46:34 »

No, JNI was there long before 1.3 (IIRC it was there since the beginning?)
Maybe you're confusing JNI with native buffers (which were introduced in java 1.4, and heavily used in LWJGL)?

yeah meant buffers of course  Grin

Until then, it's probably a better idea to experiment with Linux and the IBM JRE to see what java on PS3 can be capable of.

This is an interesting idea, if you used a stripped down version of linux (without a DE), just with Xorg, IBM JRE (OpenJDK?) and maybe software OpenGL with MESA, might be quiet powerful and capable gaming machine. Some of the benchmarks running linux on PS3 roughly compare it to a G5 PowerPC running at 1.6GHz. No sure how much of that power will be zapped up by the software OpenGL but should be enough for games like the puppygames right?
Offline princec

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« Reply #77 - Posted 2008-09-08 18:00:35 »

Nah, our games absolutely burn fill rate like it was cheap.

Cas Smiley

Offline Orangy Tang

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« Reply #78 - Posted 2008-09-08 18:41:43 »

Is it restricted by design (api) or is it just a RFE away from better controller access

Uh, as far as I know the BluRay spec is pretty much nailed down. Even minor changes aren't going to happen. What are you going to do - offer free replacements for all BluRay machines already in people's homes?

I fail to see why everyone is so obsessed with trying to run something on a PS3. Getting linux on it is far too awkward and painful and only very few will go to the effort. Getting them to jump through additional hoops to run your game is even harder. And the BluRay method is so crippled it's basically useless and isn't going to change any time soon.

Seriously, let it go people. Roll Eyes

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Offline bienator

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« Reply #79 - Posted 2008-09-08 22:02:31 »

Uh, as far as I know the BluRay spec is pretty much nailed down. Even minor changes aren't going to happen. What are you going to do - offer free replacements for all BluRay machines already in people's homes?
no this will happen automatically, bdj life isn't even yet available. Even my 8 year old satellite receiver has a automatic firmware update. With network connection this should be further simplified. Wait 2 years and you won't be able to distinguish between a bluray player and a internet connected multimedia pc.

I am no expert in that topic but I've read (or was it a podcast?) somewhere that BDJ is build of profiles which are designed to be extended and mixed in future based on the capabilities of the device which sounds for me similar to J2ME.

I am interested in this topic only form technical perspective anyway, because I am skeptical that java gaming would profit from consoles since it even doesn't shine on desktop while having best conditions on that platform.

Offline erikd

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« Reply #80 - Posted 2008-09-09 10:53:35 »

The thing with BDJ is that it's not a gaming platform. By chance some buttons of the PS3 controller double as a bluray remote, and by chance it's possible that you can run bluray with BDJ content from a USB device. It might well be possible that Sony will disable that feature in the next firmware update because it also opens up possibilities for piracy.

So even if Sony feels that it should lift BDJ's limitations of reading the PS3 controller (and I don't see why Sony would feel that need: there's hardly any BDJ content available on bluray, and the PS3 already has the best/fastest BDJ implementation on the market), then what we have in the PS3 with BDJ is still a bluray player instead of a games console and you simply can't expect too much of that.

A full JRE on 'real' PS3 on the other hand, for that I see possibilities. Especially for PSN type games, java is really the perfect fit.
And I'm sure it's not as huge a deal to get some java running on PS3 as many people seem to think, even if it would only be GCJ or something. I'm pretty sure Sony would give some support in somebody's efforts to get something going using an official devkit. Who knows, they might even like the idea of Java on PS3 enough to donate a devkit to any serious attempt for getting a JRE on PS3.

It's just that nobody even tried.

Quote
it even doesn't shine on desktop while having best conditions on that platform.
The PC is mostly a platform for casual browser gaming, and java is simply outdone by flash in that area for many reasons. And there's probably too much money involved in the big budget AAA PC titles to consider investing in a new java toolchain instead of going the tried and successful C++ route.
On PS3 otoh, people happily download and install gigabytes of pure gaming content from PSN. I'd say, the potential of java on PS3 might be even bigger than java on PC.

Offline gouessej

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« Reply #81 - Posted 2008-09-09 11:05:23 »

Has anyone been listening? Roll Eyes
Talking about GL access and first person shooters is really irrelevant without even having proper controller support.
I agree with you, sorry if I was not clear about this point.

Until then, it's probably a better idea to experiment with Linux and the IBM JRE to see what java on PS3 can be capable of.
I wrote to a YDL responsible, hardware acceleration is not available under Linux with PS3. Using OpenJDK or IBM JRE might solve the problem of proper controller support but not the problem of the lack of hardware acceleration. Nevertheless, if there is an access to JNI and if someone knows how to modify Linux to access to PSGL on PS3, perhaps it is possible to adapt JOGL-ES to work with PSGL (it seems very complicated Sad).  Finally, I doubt that casual users will accept installing Linux to play a game.

Offline princec

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« Reply #82 - Posted 2008-09-09 11:18:22 »

There'd be absolutely nothing wrong with writing completely traditional code for PS3 and using an embedded JVM, you know... all you need really is some JNI tweakery to get access to PSGL and the input stuff. LWJGL would be just great Wink Then you'd just have to compile a skeleton JVM from OpenJDK using the ordinary PS3 devkit. Thing is you'd not really want to bother because a PS3 devkit is not for hobbyists... and that's where XBox and XNA are pwning Sony and Sun utterly.

Cas Smiley

Offline zammbi

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« Reply #83 - Posted 2008-09-09 11:39:00 »

Maybe what should happen is sun should make there own Java gaming console  Cheesy

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Offline Orangy Tang

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« Reply #84 - Posted 2008-09-09 12:54:00 »

With beer. And hookers.

/bender

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Offline erikd

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« Reply #85 - Posted 2008-09-09 13:38:17 »

With beer. And hookers.

/bender

LOL  Grin

Now what could be interesting is this:
* A Sony-Sun collaboration in creating java based devkit for PSN type games for, say $100 (IIRC, MS XNA devkit for X360 costs something like 99$?)
* This devkit would include a bootable CD with a JVM+JOGL+JOAL+JINPUT to test on. You simply do development on a PC.
* Sun and Sony could get a bit of investment back through a share of the devkit price.
* Sony would benefit from having an answer to MS' cheap XNA devkit and having an answer to the belief that PS3 is too difficult to develop for.
* Sun would benefit from more java exposure. They could even squeeze in a few logo's when the JVM is started  Smiley
* This won't at all be competing with the 'real' devkit since it's a completely different thing with a different purpose. There's no way you'd be creating GTA4 using java on PS3, and games created on this devkit can only be sold through PSN.
* If games are not sold through PSN, they can still be played using the devkit (which might be a reason for non-developers to buy the devkit).

There are already 2 JVMs running on PS3, so how hard/expensive can it be?

Just thinking out loud...

Offline gouessej

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« Reply #86 - Posted 2008-09-09 15:37:38 »

all you need really is some JNI tweakery to get access to PSGL and the input stuff.
But it is a major problem! If we can't get access to PSGL through C code, how can we then imagine to write a binding for it?  Huh

Offline princec

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« Reply #87 - Posted 2008-09-09 16:30:37 »

Of course you can get access to it! How do you think PS3 developers write games??? What we'd like to see is basically an embeddable VM implementing just enough stuff to run - something like the one I used to use for my games, was about 2.5MB payload compressed with LWJGL. And LWJGL probably a much better fit than JOGL due to JOGL's extra complexity dealing with AWT (which PS3 doesn't need implemented!)

Cas Smiley

Offline bienator

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« Reply #88 - Posted 2008-09-09 16:37:08 »

Now what could be interesting is this:
...
* This devkit would include a bootable CD with a JVM+JOGL+JOAL+JINPUT to test on. You simply do development on a PC.
...
something like the NetBeans OpenGL Pack only with up to date sample projects?  Grin

Offline erikd

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« Reply #89 - Posted 2008-09-09 16:50:12 »

But it is a major problem! If we can't get access to PSGL through C code, how can we then imagine to write a binding for it?  Huh

As Cas said, it's not problem at all. It's only a problem when running Linux on PS3, but that's not what I'm talking about. Besides, it's not really realistic for Sony to support Linux to compete with native PS3.

Quote
And LWJGL probably a much better fit than JOGL due to JOGL's extra complexity dealing with AWT (which PS3 doesn't need implemented!)
I absolutely agree. I mentioned JOGL and friends because from Sun's POV that probably makes more sense to support. BDJ already has AWT implemented (albeit without widgets).

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