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  Java on Playstation 3  (Read 29601 times)
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Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Posted 2006-10-18 09:08:03 »

OK, time to talk a bit about this.

Playstation3 is coming next month, and from all that I can see it will have some kind of Java support. BD DVD should have it, and from what I could find on the net, the built in browser will support Java.

So, exactly what Java we are talking about?

And does Sun have any plans to support newest Java on PS3, because it seems that Yellow Dog  Linux is coming for Playstation 3, and will make PS3 their primary platform.

In short, can you guys finally show the cards now (less than a month before PS3 Japan and USA launch)?
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #1 - Posted 2006-10-18 09:42:15 »

In short, can you guys finally show the cards now (less than a month before PS3 Japan and USA launch)?

What cards?

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 434
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #2 - Posted 2006-10-18 10:11:55 »

If there was useful Java available, we'd know about it by now. Give up hoping for it.

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2006-10-18 10:37:26 »

If there was useful Java available, we'd know about it by now. Give up hoping for it.

Cas Smiley

Well, usefull or not, some kind of Java IS in PS3. Would just like to know what kind Smiley

http://plusd.itmedia.co.jp/games/articles/0610/18/news008.html

For the less fortunate that can't read Japanese:
"edit:
 -The web browser supports Java and Flash Player (like PSP).
 -11 languages are available.
 -When you insert a music CD (authentic one) PlayStation 3 will automatically grab the info from CDDB (if you're online).
 -PS3 start-up music will be similar to an orchestra's tuning sound before they start playing.
 
 "Install Other System" (install Linux?)"


And with Yellow Dog Linux going for PS3 (first release mid November),  and Sun (allegedly) opensourcing Java, Cell being IBM technology, PS3 having Nvidia OpenGL card in it, PS3 having a HDD, well, why are you so sure there won't be any usable Java on PS3 (maybe not at the beginning, but I really don't see why not in not so distant future)?
Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2006-10-18 10:48:53 »

However (I don't know to read Japanese) it could be that browser Java support could be just browser JavaSCRIPT support (if translators don't know the difference, which could be possible.).  However, that doesn't change the fact that SOME kind of Java on PS3 could be possible, and really a nice project, when Sun opensources compilers and other stuff.
Offline zero

Junior Devvie





« Reply #5 - Posted 2006-10-18 11:42:56 »

Err, only on page 4 java is contained (jap. and eng.) and it even reads Flash Javascript in western letters, so how did you come to idea it could be a real java (beside that bd-java thing).. ?

Anyway, I agree with Cas:

if there would be real java on the ps3, we'd know it.  Snd even if there would be good change, we'd know it, too. IMHO, there is no hope for a real, perfomant Java port on the PS3,  at east within the next 2 years.
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Devvie





« Reply #6 - Posted 2006-10-18 12:23:35 »

If there was useful Java available, we'd know about it by now. Give up hoping for it.

Cas Smiley

Here, here.
Focus on what can be done now and the near future.
If a huge hit was made with Java on existing platforms, the best case for a Java port to PS3 and/or other is THAT game(s).

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 434
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #7 - Posted 2006-10-18 14:07:59 »

I think you have mistaken consoles for little PCs. They're not. The first release of the console is the definitive standard for that console and its capabilities are basically determined from that point onwards. A crap Java port in 2 years time is not going to convince anyone except random nerds. I've got a PC and a Mac in the meantime and no desire to waste my time on such rubbish as an unsupported, slow, buggy, way-behind JVM on a console which brings absolutely no added benefit to me or anyone else!

Roll on PS4. Or maybe Nintendo will see the light. Or even XBox.

Cas Smiley

Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #8 - Posted 2006-10-18 15:02:18 »

I started this topic to see if there's any move on the Sun side. If my memory serves right, there was a lots of "we are talking with partners", "we are under NDA", "we will open up when time will be right" from Sun's side. OK, it's under a month to release now, a little update would be nice (especially considering a lots of missinfo, like my trust in the guy who translated the Japanese text above, and he seems to not know the difference between Java and JavaScript, sorry Smiley ).

So, for now it seems that the only Java on PS3 is the one in BluRay DVD player, and that is ME just for interactive DVD menus.

Now, as for consoles not being a little PCs, coming with predefined featureset etc., I beg to differ with this generation. All three of them have network upgradeable firmware, and plan to use it (it seems MS will enable 1080p via this mechanism sometimes in the future).

A different fight is going on this time. This new generation hardware actually deserves it. It looks like Sony is trying to capture any market possible. Look at Yellow Dog announcement :

"n development of Yellow Dog Linux v5.0, Terra Soft integrated and enhanced code from Barcelona Supercomputing Center, Sony Group, and Fedora in order to offer the following:
 - kernel 2.6.16
 - gcc 3.4.4 and glibc 2.4
 - Cell SDK 1.1
 - OpenOffice.org 2.0.2
 - FireFox 1.5.0 and Thunderbird 1.5.0
 - Nautilus 2.1.4
 ... and a suite of Personal Accessories, Development Tools; Sound & Video, Internet, and Networking applications.
 
 A single-click installer enables absolutely anyone to install without instruction. Post-install, the default suite of applications presents an intuitive, self-guided means of exploring Linux without the confusion of multiple applications in the same family. An Advanced installer mode enables selection from greater than fifteen hundred packages, as is expected from a complete Linux distribution. "

Now, if that ain't PC, I don't know what is Smiley

Combine that with new and what it seems very open game download service, which will, it seems again, support even indie titles (Fl0w), seems to me that there could be a nice chance for Sun and/or OS community to bring some kind of Java to PS3. Now, it has flash, openoffice, firefox etc, but not Java? Why? The shear volume of this new platform in coming years makes it worth for someone to try a port. If not for gaming (initially), I sure wouldn't mind sub 600$ 3.2 PPC machine with 1080p output running some Java.



Offline BloodRain

Junior Devvie





« Reply #9 - Posted 2006-10-18 19:59:12 »

Quote
If there was useful Java available, we'd know about it by now. Give up hoping for it.

Cas
We knew  Grin Andrew Davison("Killer game programming in java"'s author) opened a topic about this some time ago.
I read that there will be a game in java named "Speed: Take Down".That's all I know...
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Andrew Davison

Junior Devvie


Medals: 2



« Reply #10 - Posted 2006-10-19 02:08:08 »


My current guess is that Linux on the PS3 will follow the same route as Linux on the PS2 -- the release of C/C++ development kits from Sony and third parties. A good site, if you're interested in this sort of thing for the PS2, is: http://playstation2-linux.com/coding-on-playstation2.php.

Henry Fortuna's tutorials show the fun stuff that can be done on the PS2: http://www.hsfortuna.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/.

My guess (once again Smiley) is that home-grown development on the PS3 will be much more popular, since it'll be so much easier for programmers to get started, and there'll be a much wider audience for their games.

This is a large opportunity lost to Java in my opinion.

- Andrew

BTW, Henry Fortuna's site as some interesting academic papers on teaching games on consoles, which might be of interest



Dr. Andrew Davison
Dept. of Computer Engineering
Prince of Songkla University, Hat Yai
Songkhla 90112, Thailand
Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #11 - Posted 2006-10-19 08:22:12 »


My current guess is that Linux on the PS3 will follow the same route as Linux on the PS2 -- the release of C/C++ development kits from Sony and third parties. A good site, if you're interested in this sort of thing for the PS2, is: http://playstation2-linux.com/coding-on-playstation2.php.

Henry Fortuna's tutorials show the fun stuff that can be done on the PS2: http://www.hsfortuna.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/.

My guess (once again Smiley) is that home-grown development on the PS3 will be much more popular, since it'll be so much easier for programmers to get started, and there'll be a much wider audience for their games.

This is a large opportunity lost to Java in my opinion.

- Andrew

BTW, Henry Fortuna's site as some interesting academic papers on teaching games on consoles, which might be of interest




Yep, it seems that (for now) IBM & co  are pushing just C/C++ compilers for Linux on Cell. I say "for now" because I really don't see how IBM plans to make Cell based servers without supporting their huge Java investment. And yes, this is a large opportunity lost to Java. However, I'm still kind of hoping that someone will realize that Smiley Sony, it seems, is loosing up a bit (they obviously did let a third party developers to release a almost full blown Linux distribution for PS3, and this time, every PS3 has a HD, no need to buy one to run something different on a console), Sun is definatelly loosing up with Java (they ARE going open source), so the question is, who will be first to step up and port the damn thing. It could be G(ame)VM, for a start Smiley (basically, that small thingy that Prince has)
Offline dsellars

Junior Devvie




Need to write more games


« Reply #12 - Posted 2006-10-19 08:56:34 »

As much as I don't want to go down this road.

Dosn't OpenOffice use Java in some way?

Dan.
Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #13 - Posted 2006-10-19 09:16:04 »

As much as I don't want to go down this road.

Dosn't OpenOffice use Java in some way?

Dan.

Why not going down this road Smiley Is Java on PS3 some kind of taboo?

Yep, OpenOffice is using Java, in version 2.0+ it is using it for Base (kind of Access-for-OO). However, it can be built without Java. Which I suppose is done in YDL
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 434
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #14 - Posted 2006-10-19 11:49:22 »

I sure wouldn't mind sub 600$ 3.2 PPC machine with 1080p output running some Java.
It's called a Mac Mini.

Cas Smiley

Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #15 - Posted 2006-10-19 12:38:38 »

I sure wouldn't mind sub 600$ 3.2 PPC machine with 1080p output running some Java.
It's called a Mac Mini.

Cas Smiley

He he. Won't do. Not a PPC anymore Smiley And "only" 1.66 Ghz (well, dual cores will definatelly help there, although I doubt linear). However, no double HDMI,  no BluRay, "just" 4 USB ports, and most of all, no price drops ("everyone" knows that PS3 will drop like mad in 2007). Oh, yes, and no games. And SPE's, if anyone knows how to suck some power out of them. And they probably won't sell 50 mil of those by the end of the decade in peoples living rooms.

But a really really nice machine, newertheless. I would actually opt for both Smiley
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Devvie





« Reply #16 - Posted 2006-10-19 16:22:20 »

I sure wouldn't mind sub 600$ 3.2 PPC machine with 1080p output running some Java.
It's called a Mac Mini.

Cas Smiley
I was going to say the same thing BUT the graphics capabilities are nowhere near each other...

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline grazi

Senior Newbie




Life > Games > All


« Reply #17 - Posted 2006-10-20 02:45:32 »

*pets his mac mini*
I love mine, even though its a powerpc Smiley

Jeff Olson
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Devvie





« Reply #18 - Posted 2006-10-20 03:44:03 »

We use ours to watch YouTube and Google video together in the living room on the big screen.
I can recommend a great wireless keyboard/trackball combo for just such a usage.

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline princec

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 434
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2006-10-20 09:42:46 »

The graphics caps of the Mini are a match for PS2 I suspect. Don't forget the PS2 is only filling 320x200 pixels. And the clock speed and memory in the Mini are far, far superior to the PS2. And the games are a lot cheaper. And ... it's a real computer too!! So much going for it, it surprises me that Apple haven't p1mped it as a games machine.

Cas Smiley


Offline whome

Junior Devvie




Carte Noir Java


« Reply #20 - Posted 2006-11-12 20:00:59 »

Ok, for now Java is second-class citizen in Playstation 3. It does exist somehow in bluray dics. But not available as an applet plugin in web browser. Adobe Flash plugin is implemented, so thats +1p for Flash programmers.

But do we have hope using OtherOS wagon?
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/playstation.php
http://www.powerdeveloper.org/news.php?id=271
http://java.sun.com/j2se/embedded/

What we know so far, 3D gfx card cannot be accessed from the OtherOS side. Lets see if Sony ever opens it up because it will expand 100% indie games where Sony might not get any revenues. But a normal non-hardware accelerated doublebuffered framebuffer is available.
Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #21 - Posted 2006-11-17 22:22:29 »

OK, first Linux (Fedora 5) installed on retail PS3.

http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=40417&page=4

Unfortunatelly, no RSX (NVidia card in PS3, reality synthesizer  Grin ) exposed to guest OS for now (and maybe forever), and just cca 200MB of RAM.

But, it seems that PPC software "just works" on PS3. Sooooo, any Linux PPC Java's around? (I know just Blackdown, I think last Linux PPC release was 1.3.1)
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Devvie





« Reply #22 - Posted 2006-11-17 23:42:00 »

You know, with this whole OpenJDK thing and a complete source available OS/Java stack, independent developer game usable Java (whew-whata-mouthful) on the PS3 is starting to look possible...

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #23 - Posted 2006-11-18 08:00:09 »

You know, with this whole OpenJDK thing and a complete source available OS/Java stack, independent developer game usable Java (whew-whata-mouthful) on the PS3 is starting to look possible...

Well, Java will get to the PS3 sooner or later (someone has to make newer port to PPC than 1.3.1 currently available). Sony hiding RSX from guest OSses and leaving them just 200 MB of RAM could be a bit problematic for gaming Smiley I don't know if Mesa (software OpenGL) could be adapted to use SPE's. Have seen some pretty impressive demos of Cell doing raycasting realtime, though.
Offline selendic

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #24 - Posted 2006-11-18 11:59:45 »

Ups, was I wrong (missed the obvious) Smiley We are closer than I thought. IBM has Java for Linux PPC! 5.0 for production, 6.0 in early access program.

Now I just have to persuade someone to download it on Linux enabled PS3.
Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Devvie




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Reply #25 - Posted 2006-11-20 16:04:13 »

The new PS3 has the Java Powered Logo on the box with all of the other logos. (My wife bought my son one.  Will not open until Christmas.)  I feel like that is a little misleading since it will not run Java-based applications, or am I wrong?

Jeff

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #26 - Posted 2006-11-20 20:18:53 »

Well, its part of the blu-ray spec. For the most part some slow interpreted implementation is used, which can be used for some menu stuff... but thats about it.

There are some players with fast implementations, but there are only a few stand alone blu-ray players like that.

See this thread for further information:
http://www.java-gaming.org/forums/index.php?topic=14971.0

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Devvie




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Reply #27 - Posted 2006-11-20 21:04:46 »

Well, its part of the blu-ray spec. For the most part some slow interpreted implementation is used, which can be used for some menu stuff... but thats about it.

There are some players with fast implementations, but there are only a few stand alone blu-ray players like that.

See this thread for further information:
http://www.java-gaming.org/forums/index.php?topic=14971.0

I understand, but to say it's "Java Powered" implies (at least to me) that the user can run Java-based applications on it.  But I can see your point.  Thanks!

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline Andrew Davison

Junior Devvie


Medals: 2



« Reply #28 - Posted 2007-01-06 03:04:24 »


It looks like the way to get Java on the PS3 is via Linux and IBM.

Quite a few people seem to have got Yellow Dog Linux (YDL) working on the PS3. There's an article about it at:
http://ps3.qj.net/PS3-Linux-The-void-has-been-filled-Full-install-instructions-for-Fedora-Core-5-/pg/49/aid/73144

It's the Fedora Core 5 PPC image.

The next step, which no one seems to have done yet, is to install IBM's Java for the PPC (found at http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/java/jdk/linux/download.html
).

There's been several posts about trying it at the PS3Forums (http://www.ps3forums.com/), for example in the thread http://www.ps3forums.com/showthread.php?t=47492&highlight=java (you may need to register to read it).

- Andrew

Dr. Andrew Davison
Dept. of Computer Engineering
Prince of Songkla University, Hat Yai
Songkhla 90112, Thailand
Offline Andrew Davison

Junior Devvie


Medals: 2



« Reply #29 - Posted 2007-01-06 03:10:14 »

Oops, I forgot a bit of info.

At the IBM download site, the PPC version is J2SE5.0 SR3 for 64bit pSeries.

Dr. Andrew Davison
Dept. of Computer Engineering
Prince of Songkla University, Hat Yai
Songkhla 90112, Thailand
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