Java-Gaming.org    
Featured games (81)
games approved by the League of Dukes
Games in Showcase (480)
Games in Android Showcase (110)
games submitted by our members
Games in WIP (546)
games currently in development
News: Read the Java Gaming Resources, or peek at the official Java tutorials
 
    Home     Help   Search   Login   Register   
Pages: [1]
  ignore  |  Print  
  Why don't we have more Java games  (Read 3208 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Posted 2006-08-14 12:21:38 »

Java has everything necessary to do high quality PC games. Why do you think only a few games are using it? People prefer to create low quality gc solutions in C++ and having trouble with dll bugs?

Also i noticed that even among people who are interested in Java games that they usualy create games with a simple AI. Perhaps this is because Java still lacks a good AI package. Or perhaps we just need a game that uses it well so that everyone can experience with it and learn from it.
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #1 - Posted 2006-08-14 12:58:14 »

This looks basically like yet another C++ vs Java thread  Tongue
I think it comes down to this:
* Using C++ has been tradition for a long time and therefor there is more support, experience and knowledge available.
* Lack of portability to consoles
* Top of the line games are multi million dollar projects, and the above makes for an added risk for using java.

This is why a community like this is so important. We get increasingly more knowledge and experience with using java for games, and there seems to be some real interaction between Sun and this community: Their java implementation becomes more and more capable for games and they provide game oriented libraries (jogg/joal/jinput, project darkstar).

Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #2 - Posted 2006-08-14 15:27:13 »

* jogg : jogl
(EDIT : Don't laugh.. I first thought Sun did an OGG decoder lib  Grin )

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 152
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #3 - Posted 2006-08-14 15:29:03 »

Quote
Also i noticed that even among people who are interested in Java games that they usualy create games with a simple AI. Perhaps this is because Java still lacks a good AI package. Or perhaps we just need a game that uses it well so that everyone can experience with it and learn from it.

Good observation - mostly due to projects not getting far enough or not being complicated enough to require complicated AI.

Kev

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #4 - Posted 2006-08-15 12:57:34 »

* jogg : jogl
(EDIT : Don't laugh.. I first thought Sun did an OGG decoder lib  Grin )

Oops  Embarrassed

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #5 - Posted 2006-08-15 18:10:26 »

Its possible to do very complex games with just a scripting language and a path grid if you are doing an rpg. Games like Fallout, Morrowind, Baldurs Gate, Kotor never got much more far than this.

Another thing, that is probably slowing down Java indie games is the lack of a good Collada exporter for a free modeler like Blender. I think Xith and JME already  have some support for it but Blender exporter is not very good still.

Besides Collada theres little else i have seen in the Java panorama to create an entire scene including, materials, animations, path grids, etc

Maybe Collada isn't really the right format for games. How do you export a path grid in Collada for example?
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #6 - Posted 2006-08-15 18:41:12 »

It's quite ambitious to wish to create an unique format to rule them all... COLLADA isn't adapted for levels.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2006-08-15 21:26:04 »

I think because the pros don't use it and most wannabes spend most of their time studying what their programming heroes do.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 361
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #8 - Posted 2006-08-16 09:12:15 »

That, and the total lack of PS/XBox support.

Cas Smiley

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #9 - Posted 2006-08-16 11:32:29 »

I think because the pros don't use it and most wannabes spend most of their time studying what their programming heroes do.

That is true. Collada is very good for Playstation but should it mater to everyone else as much as it maters for Sony and their parteners? Creating a game engine is full of pitfalls so it's good to learn with those that made something instead of just following related game sites.

It's quite ambitious to wish to create an unique format to rule them all... COLLADA isn't adapted for levels.

I never said that and i don't know Collada in deep imideatly discard it. But reason with me. You are not going to set path grids by hand. You need to browse your scene and edit the path nodes. Even if you use a tool to automatically place the grid, tools aren't perfect so everything needs to be visualized and checked. So if you have to make your scene editor anyway why bothering with Collada? You could have an option to import Collada objects for static and animated object but read ahead.

Path grids are just an example. There are toons of other game objects like activators, physics objects, traps, etc that will require a game scene editor.

Collada has its advantages to export animated and static scenes using basic skeletal animation techniques. But if you try to do something more advanced, like "Die By The Sword" did, again, i will have to ignore Collada because it's not useful. So we are left with Collada for static scenes, lights and materials. No wonder that so many people use their own scene and data formats, with versions of xml/text for exporters and binary versions for loading speed.

This is an area where Java can take advantage from the competition. And using X3D instead,  because you can create your own personal extensions, and use whatever encoding you want (xml, vrml syntax, text or whatever) may be a better choice for your scene editor.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #10 - Posted 2006-08-16 11:38:32 »

Die By The Sword! I'd forgotten about that game.

Great idea, very close to unplayable in practice...

Sorry, that's not really on topic is it?  Tongue
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #11 - Posted 2006-08-16 11:54:56 »

This looks basically like yet another C++ vs Java thread  Tongue
I think it comes down to this:

Indeed.

For small commercial projects, what's the point of writing in java when you can't get on the two biggest-selling platforms for games (PS2 and DS)? I mean, it puts the whole "is it worth supporting OS X?" debate into the shade when you look at the volume of games purchasers you shut out by not using at least one of those two platforms. IIRC global installed base of PS2 was around 120 million last time I checked...and ALL those are pure games machines with known characteristics and only one set of hardware to support Smiley.

For casual games, why use java when it doesn't have a working webstart etc - if you've got to write your own installer/updaters, your own DRM code, etc then you might just as well use C++ anyway. Most of the production time is NOT in development, so java's advantages in dev time are halved straight out the door.

Quote
This is why a community like this is so important. We get increasingly more knowledge and experience with using java for games, and there seems to be some real interaction between Sun and this community: Their java implementation becomes more and more capable for games and they provide game oriented libraries (jogg/joal/jinput, project darkstar).

Yet, embarking on a 8-figure publisher-funded project where it's a possibility to use java for the MMOG backend, I try to contact Sun about evaluating java for this, and there's no response Sad.

No-one but no-one *** is going to go around risking commercial projects when the support for java games development is still so immature. I would want to see 2 or 3 major real games come out with the GTG's involvement before I started to take it on trust that if I did a multi-million dollar project they'd be willing and able to provide an appropriate level of support and that the java platform were up to it.

*** - oh, OK, there'll always be a crazy few Smiley

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #12 - Posted 2006-08-16 13:28:59 »

Die By The Sword! I'd forgotten about that game.
Great idea, very close to unplayable in practice...
Sorry, that's not really on topic is it?  Tongue

There are several modes of control. Theres a familiar Streetfighter controls and an hardcore mode where your mouse and movement keys are linked to your sword, legs and torso. So you actualy control every movement of your body and sword by raising or lowering the mouse to raise your sword or clicking a mouse button to extend your arm. It's crazy but thats not everything. If you cut a foes leg or the two legs he will still fight jumping with one leg or crawling. Cut his arm and he will fight with the other arm. Cut both arms and he will fight with is head and feet. You can rotate your torso while running and cut your oponent from the side with hardcore control or be caught upside down with a rope on your legs and still swing your sword and attack. Thats a game made  when? 8 years ago? Technology used in games, except for cg, is old no mater how much they hype them.

On another note I'm willing to work on flexible and independent scene editor for games. Even before trying to create my own game engine or modify an already existing one to create my game. I think this is fundamental before wasting time on anything else.
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #13 - Posted 2006-08-16 13:34:11 »

[
Yet, embarking on a 8-figure publisher-funded project where it's a possibility to use java for the MMOG backend, I try to contact Sun about evaluating java for this, and there's no response Sad.


Check your e-mail Smiley

-Chris

Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #14 - Posted 2006-08-16 13:49:09 »

On another note I'm willing to work on flexible and independent scene editor for games. Even before trying to create my own game engine or modify an already existing one to create my game. I think this is fundamental before wasting time on anything else.

Please give your ideas on that thread : http://www.java-gaming.org/forums/index.php?topic=14669.0

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline OverKill

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #15 - Posted 2006-08-16 13:49:47 »

[
Yet, embarking on a 8-figure publisher-funded project where it's a possibility to use java for the MMOG backend, I try to contact Sun about evaluating java for this, and there's no response Sad.


Check your e-mail Smiley

-Chris
Would not mind hearing the answer as well.
Pages: [1]
  ignore  |  Print  
 
 
You cannot reply to this message, because it is very, very old.

 

Add your game by posting it in the WIP section,
or publish it in Showcase.

The first screenshot will be displayed as a thumbnail.

atombrot (21 views)
2014-08-19 09:29:53

Tekkerue (21 views)
2014-08-16 06:45:27

Tekkerue (21 views)
2014-08-16 06:22:17

Tekkerue (12 views)
2014-08-16 06:20:21

Tekkerue (19 views)
2014-08-16 06:12:11

Rayexar (56 views)
2014-08-11 02:49:23

BurntPizza (37 views)
2014-08-09 21:09:32

BurntPizza (29 views)
2014-08-08 02:01:56

Norakomi (35 views)
2014-08-06 19:49:38

BurntPizza (65 views)
2014-08-03 02:57:17
List of Learning Resources
by Longor1996
2014-08-16 10:40:00

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-08-05 19:33:27

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:20:17

Resources for WIP games
by CogWheelz
2014-08-01 16:19:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:29:50

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 16:26:06

List of Learning Resources
by SilverTiger
2014-07-31 11:54:12

HotSpot Options
by dleskov
2014-07-08 01:59:08
java-gaming.org is not responsible for the content posted by its members, including references to external websites, and other references that may or may not have a relation with our primarily gaming and game production oriented community. inquiries and complaints can be sent via email to the info‑account of the company managing the website of java‑gaming.org
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines | Managed by Enhanced Four Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!