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  Your opinion about DirectX10 and OpenGL?  (Read 23491 times)
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Online Riven
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« Reply #60 - Posted 2006-08-07 14:13:10 »

Eventhough he was nearly ritually sacrified in that thread, uj had some valid points.

Some devs here just want every API written in Java to be written in the same spirit as Java.
But hey, it's not all about ideology, it's also about making money - and learning new technologies.

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Offline kaffiene
« Reply #61 - Posted 2006-08-08 23:47:27 »

Eventhough he was nearly ritually sacrified in that thread, uj had some valid points.

Some devs here just want every API written in Java to be written in the same spirit as Java.
But hey, it's not all about ideology, it's also about making money - and learning new technologies.
Screw ideology - it simply doesn't make sense - it adds no value while reducing portability.

A wrapper for the non 3d parts of DX makes sense, but thats it.
Online Riven
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« Reply #62 - Posted 2006-08-09 00:25:53 »

Maybe you forgot how many driver-problems OpenGL-implementions have?

ATi (or: AMD) and nVidia give a heck of a lot more priority to getting the best performance and stability out of DirectX, because simply that's where 95% of the game-market is. It's basicly rocksolid while OpenGL remains flackey at best.

The Java2D-team knows everything about it. Only the very very last (or near future) drivers are usable for the OpenGL-pipeline of Java2D. They still haven't ditched their DirectX implementation, for a reason!


So much for 'it simply doesn't make sense' and 'it adds not value while reducing portability'


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Offline zingbat

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« Reply #63 - Posted 2006-08-10 10:30:10 »

Don't see your problem here. You only have to download the latest drivers and have a modern graphics card to have the same stability  that directx offers. Java2d is another thing and it makes sense for them to support both for computers with old gcs and buggy opengl drivers. People who require hardware acceleration for visualization and games usualy have a good gc and they still have to do a lot of low level tweaking and fixing to get the best out of it no mater what api they use.
Online Riven
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« Reply #64 - Posted 2006-08-10 13:35:20 »

You don't wanna know how many people with great graphics-cards have outdated drivers.

And if you aim at the casual gamemarket - where eyecandy is a musthave - the situation is much worse.

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Offline zero

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« Reply #65 - Posted 2006-08-10 13:50:50 »

You don't wanna know how many people with great graphics-cards have outdated drivers.

And if you aim at the casual gamemarket - where eyecandy is a musthave - the situation is much worse.

Even worse: some vendors don't offer GC driver updates even for new notebooks and the preinstalled versions are way behind the actual ones from ATI/nVidia for the PC-versions. Therefore I doesn't matter, whether XP/Vista allows OpenGL driver from the hardware vendors to be installed, if there are none or no new ones available..
Offline swpalmer

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« Reply #66 - Posted 2006-08-10 13:54:34 »

The more software that uses OpenGL the more likely the card manufacturers are to give it better support.  Giving in to the monopolist only hurts the industry.

Online Riven
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« Reply #67 - Posted 2006-08-10 15:43:11 »

Indeed, but that doesn't help those that need to make money *now* Undecided

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Offline zingbat

Senior Member




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« Reply #68 - Posted 2006-08-10 20:45:51 »

You don't wanna know how many people with great graphics-cards have outdated drivers.

Theres a very easy solution for that, when you install the game also install the updated drivers for the most common manufactors. Or warn the inexperienced user to install new drivers and point him some links.

Having a directx binding won't change anything as outdated directx drivers will cause the same problems you describe.

Still i would like to see someone trying a directx binding for java just to prove it's not realy worth the trouble right now with current OpenGL apis, but don't expect sun to support it.
Online Riven
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Hand over your head.


« Reply #69 - Posted 2006-08-10 23:44:32 »

1) Zero just mentioned the situation with notebooks...

2) The problem isn't the same with DirectX drivers because they tend to be rocksolid, even older versions.

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Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #70 - Posted 2006-08-11 01:27:18 »

1) Zero just mentioned the situation with notebooks...

But thats an atipical problem. It only shows that there are bad notebook manufacters. You don't have to fix every problem in every computer on this planet and that certainly wont magicaly happen with directx.

2) The problem isn't the same with DirectX drivers because they tend to be rocksolid, even older versions.

You know there are realy three versions we have to distinguish here. Directx 7 for very old cards. Directx 8.1 for pre-sahders graphics cards. And finnaly directx9+ drivers. I know that HL2 supports these three versions as separate drivers. So if you wanted maximum compatibility then you would realy need three bindings and not just one. Have fun with directx.

Offline darkprophet

Senior Member




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #71 - Posted 2006-08-12 00:39:22 »

If you had PixelShader 3.0, then you would typically need different shader versions than if you had 2.0. And this is in OpenGL...

HL2 did the same for DX 8.1 and DX 9.0

* darkprophet hids back

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Offline uj

Junior Member





« Reply #72 - Posted 2006-08-13 06:18:38 »

I think what "uj" is trying to do is to prevent Java from becoming a widely used gaming development platform by sucking in devs time in worthless and endless discussions.

The reason I'm participating in these discussions is because I want to hear the opinions of others. I sometimes push it a little but that's just to be more engaging. What's wrong with that really?

Vista is coming and DirectX 10 is coming. Look here for example. (Also check the DirectX 10 link just at the beginning).

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2000442,00.asp

I read things like this and I know Java doesn't support DirectX directly. Is that good for me and for Java? Do I and Java miss out on something important while busy praying at the altar of portability? I'm not talking about drawing a few lines in pedagogical games for todlers here. I'm talking about gaming at the bleeding edge of the possible like those guys interviewed are producing.

Quote
(Do you remember his wonderful troll about C++/Java)

I was being serious but somehow managed to piss off everybody especially the moderators which probably wasn't such a good idea. Shit happens but njema problema and I still think it's an interesting topic worth discussing, I just do it elsewhere. And not that it matters but I'm a she.

My applications are in Bioinformatics and Molecular Dynamics Simulations so I'll be fine with OpenGL but I think game-style graphics could be a competitive advantage also in modelling applications. That's why I'm investigating this and I would prefer to stick with Java for the simple reason that I like it. Not a very professional attitude I admit.  Wink
Offline thiagosc2

Senior Newbie





« Reply #73 - Posted 2006-08-14 21:20:02 »

I read things like this and I know Java doesn't support DirectX directly. Is that good for me and for Java? Do I and Java miss out on something important while busy praying at the altar of portability? I'm not talking about drawing a few lines in pedagogical games for todlers here. I'm talking about gaming at the bleeding edge of the possible like those guys interviewed are producing.

Why would anyone choose to develop games using Java if it's not because of the portability (or some degree of it) the platform provides? Wouldn't be better, cheaper and easier to just stay with C++ or jump to C#, since MS is pushing it and there wouldn't be much trouble since the tools would be practically the same (Visual Studio)?

Even if a minority would choose Java even in non-portable code, would it be worth spending time and money to produce a "binding" for it? Or would be better to just wait that the afflicted minority develop one for themselves?

I don't think the benefits justify the costs of such thing. In the other hand OpenGL makes sense, not only for games, but for other applications as well.
Offline g666

Junior Member





« Reply #74 - Posted 2006-08-14 21:53:45 »


Why would anyone choose to develop games using Java if it's not because of the portability (or some degree of it) the platform provides? Wouldn't be better, cheaper and easier to just stay with C++ or jump to C#, since MS is pushing it and there wouldn't be much trouble since the tools would be practically the same (Visual Studio)?


uh,

maybe because java is a nice language to code in, and it is as cheap as can be (free), and i dont feel the need to jump to whatever microsoft is pushing, and i didnt come from c++ so i cant just stay there.

desperately seeking sanity
Offline blank_axolotl

Junior Newbie





« Reply #75 - Posted 2006-08-15 00:22:09 »

If you're in MD, no kidding openGL is your choice. All the major programs  are unix based (or at least many/most people use them on unix).  The popular visualization tools use opengl. Why do you care about directx??

Actually, isn't this an example why lack of interoperability is bad? Opengl lets the researchers use whatever system they want and have invested their time in, while directx forces them to windows. And many use unix. You can't argue anything about market penetration here.
Offline princec

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« Reply #76 - Posted 2006-08-15 09:57:32 »

Who cares!!! Will someone just please get on the case and develop a DX binding for LWJGL and then everybody's happy. End of story.

Cas Smiley

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #77 - Posted 2006-08-16 00:01:11 »

Who cares!!! Will someone just please get on the case and develop a DX binding for LWJGL and then everybody's happy. End of story.

The Linux and Mac users that won't be able to run the games because they require Direct X won't be happy Smiley ... this sort of thing needs to be done one level removed from Direct X - like Java 3d.  Oh, wait, Java 3D is already done.  I guess we are all happy Smiley

Offline Matzon

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« Reply #78 - Posted 2006-08-16 05:14:06 »

java3d isn't a dx binding - it's its own scenegraph ON TOP of dx

Offline princec

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« Reply #79 - Posted 2006-08-16 09:13:24 »

Precisely. Write the DX binding for LWJGL, then develop a scenegraph on top of DX and OpenGL, call it the Monkey Engine or something, and job done. Like I said, everyone's happy.

Cas Smiley

Offline uj

Junior Member





« Reply #80 - Posted 2006-08-19 06:55:48 »

If you're in MD, no kidding openGL is your choice. All the major programs  are unix based (or at least many/most people use them on unix).  The popular visualization tools use opengl. Why do you care about directx??

Actually, isn't this an example why lack of interoperability is bad? Opengl lets the researchers use whatever system they want and have invested their time in, while directx forces them to windows. And many use unix. You can't argue anything about market penetration here.

You're thinking like an engineer. Just because everybody have been using Fortran and OpenGL for ages doesn't mean that it's going to stay like that forever. I see opportunity in technology shifts. Just because 60 years old Mr. Tired Professor holds on to his beloved old tools like his life depended on them doesn't mean 25 years old Ms. Eager Student will. She's got a totally different outlook. And she's probably going to work somewhere in industry rather than in academia. It's a totally different environment.
Offline Spasi
« Reply #81 - Posted 2006-08-19 11:35:26 »

uj, could you please stop talking about OpenGL like it's a dead API or something? Just because you read about DX10's (really exciting) features so many months before being able to use them, doesn't mean that OpenGL is so far behind, or that it won't be able to support a couple of new hardware features. Are you aware that DX10 features won't be accessible on pre-Vista Windows? Are you aware of the new object model and GL3.0? Just give me a new driver with a new extension and I'll be able to use geometry shaders on WinXP/Linux/whatever right now.

Btw, +1 from me for a DX binding. There's nothing wrong with writing a Java app that targets the windows platform exclusively. The same goes for other platforms.
Offline uj

Junior Member





« Reply #82 - Posted 2006-08-20 07:30:09 »

uj, could you please stop talking about OpenGL like it's a dead API or something?

Both OpenGL and DirectX are alive and I've not argued that one is better than the other. It's a question of choise.

What I find amazing is that there still exists an almost religious sentiment that Java is more than just a programming language. It's a beacon in the darkness of non-portability and it's a sword to fight evil forces (read Microsoft). So it follows that Java just cannot support DirectX. I just don't share this idea.
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #83 - Posted 2006-08-20 09:45:57 »

Precisely. Write the DX binding for LWJGL, then develop a scenegraph on top of DX and OpenGL, call it the Monkey Engine or something, and job done. Like I said, everyone's happy.
Cas Smiley

I think you are the only person here who ever done a binding and are experienced. I doubt anyone else would be able to do it right and in less time than you could. Why don't you try it?

A DirectX binding would have an advantage. It would not be first that MS would try to criple the competition by doing some mumbo-jambo with windows. So a DX binding would sort of shield Java developers fears and give more confidence.

uj, could you please stop talking about OpenGL like it's a dead API or something?
Both OpenGL and DirectX are alive and I've not argued that one is better than the other. It's a question of choise.
What I find amazing is that there still exists an almost religious sentiment that Java is more than just a programming language. It's a beacon in the darkness of non-portability and it's a sword to fight evil forces (read Microsoft). So it follows that Java just cannot support DirectX. I just don't share this idea.

For Gods sake you contradict yourself in every post. If you want to be devils advocate at least do it in an inteligent way.
Offline uj

Junior Member





« Reply #84 - Posted 2006-08-20 10:27:57 »

For Gods sake you contradict yourself in every post. If you want to be devils advocate at least do it in an inteligent way.

And you who are so intelligent would you please give an example of such a contradiction; A single one in the whole thread. And I'm not anybody's advocate. I'm expressing my own view.
Offline cYaONE

Senior Newbie





« Reply #85 - Posted 2006-08-20 17:17:38 »

One year ago I wanted to write a Direct3D-Binding for Java. But I stopped, because I didn't had an idea how to free native resources in a determenistic way (finalizers are undeterministic) when an object isn't referenced anymore. So if you have an idea, tell me please ...

By the way: It would be great, if Sony uses Java as a reactiion to Microsoft's XNA stuff on their PS3. Maybe that will be possible, when Java is completely open-source ...
Offline princec

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« Reply #86 - Posted 2006-08-20 19:07:50 »

Precisely. Write the DX binding for LWJGL, then develop a scenegraph on top of DX and OpenGL, call it the Monkey Engine or something, and job done. Like I said, everyone's happy.
Cas Smiley

I think you are the only person here who ever done a binding and are experienced. I doubt anyone else would be able to do it right and in less time than you could. Why don't you try it?
Because my wife's just left me and I don't really give a shit any more about anything much Smiley Even if I did... I'm happy with what I've got. Elias might well be up for it though, he's trying to make a proper business out of Oddlabs.

Cas Smiley

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #87 - Posted 2006-08-21 10:42:02 »

One year ago I wanted to write a Direct3D-Binding for Java. But I stopped, because I didn't had an idea how to free native resources in a determenistic way (finalizers are undeterministic) when an object isn't referenced anymore. So if you have an idea, tell me please ...

Do you realy need to do that?
Offline princec

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« Reply #88 - Posted 2006-08-21 11:14:51 »

No, he doesn't, it's a red herring. GC is about memory management, not resource management.

Cas Smiley

Offline cYaONE

Senior Newbie





« Reply #89 - Posted 2006-08-21 22:41:37 »

No, he doesn't, it's a red herring. GC is about memory management, not resource management.

Cas Smiley

But how do I know, when I have to free native resources?
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