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  Sun's big netbeans strategy and why it will fail  (Read 9179 times)
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Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Posted 2006-05-18 22:48:38 »

I noticed that a Register article about where Sun will go from here mentioned they wanted to drive users from Eclipse towards Netbeans or SunOne or whatever they are calling it now.

I don't think it's going to work. The reason is that I have been using Netbeans since version 3 and I am about to stop. I expect that the new version of the IDE is brilliant, does 90 percent of the work I could ever want to do automatically and telepathically anticipates every piece of code I may write.

That doesn't matter at all because I can't work out how to import an existing Java file into Netbeans. Ive tried going through the filesystem and project trees, no result. Maybe the file menu? No. By tracking the right set of options in the file menu I can actually open the file in the IDE editor but there is no way I can find to add it to the project.

I'm sure it can be done, that's not the point- I've been using various IDEs for the last five years. I have never found one so obstructive on such a simple task. I'm probably about to move to Eclipse - if I netbeans can't manage this most basic of tasks what serious tasks is it going to render impossible?
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #1 - Posted 2006-05-18 23:22:07 »

Ahh yeah, how do you do that?

I've been CUT AND PASTING the code from a text viewer to the class I have to make in advance (empty) in a Project...

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #2 - Posted 2006-05-18 23:32:55 »

I've been having to do the same, all the time growling to myself and thinking "Visual Studio doesn't make me do this..."
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Offline harry@dayfamilyweb

Junior Member





« Reply #3 - Posted 2006-05-18 23:54:09 »

normal java code you just pop it in the src folder or a folder in the src folder if you want to import from eclipse youse the modual that dose tah and so on Cool
Offline woogley
« Reply #4 - Posted 2006-05-18 23:59:31 »

I've never used an IDE for Java.. I've always used notepad for every java app (private apps and ones I get paid to do). it fails me not, and my bosses love me oO;
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 605
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #5 - Posted 2006-05-19 00:22:25 »

I can't imagine managing hundreds of classes in notepad

Any refactoring is out of the question then.

 (you're gonna say good code doesn't need refactoring, eh?)

I hope you're messing with us Smiley

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Offline kaffiene
« Reply #6 - Posted 2006-05-19 01:30:58 »

WTF?Huh

You drop the sodding file into the src directory.  Done!

NetBeans since version 4 has been a better IDE for me than Eclipse (which I used to use exclusively).  Yes, the NB3 version was crap, but FFS, why the hell are you using that and not the much-improved newer versions???

Sheesh!  That;s like saying Eclipse 1.1 sucked, so I won't use Eclipse 3.x.
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

JGO Overlord


Medals: 605
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #7 - Posted 2006-05-19 01:37:53 »

He said "since version 3", that doesn't imply he never upgraded

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Offline zero

Junior Member





« Reply #8 - Posted 2006-05-19 01:48:25 »

How about filling an RFE instead of complaining? Smiley

or even contribute by implementing the desired feature yourself..
..but I know: I'm myself that lazy, always wanting the possiblity to exclude files in the src-folder from compilation..  Undecided
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #9 - Posted 2006-05-19 01:50:10 »

I would switch back to NetBeans (from Eclipse) if they improve the code editor.  It's just much faster for me to edit code in Eclipse because:
- there are more refactoring options,
- the refactoring workflow is smoother,
- the code auto-complete is much smarter,
- the auto-complete is much faster,
- the ability to change code while I am debugging it without restarting my app is a huge bonus

I like the NetBeans profiler  (though I have an app that hangs when it runs under the profiler, sigh...)
I like that NetBeans will make an Ant build file for me.
I hate that NetBeans projects force me to make a single JAR when I want logical separation of the classes into different Jars (custom ant scripts can deal with that of course, but such projects are a bit crippled in the IDE)
I don't mind the GUI editor (Matisse) much , but find that it is often still more trouble than it is worth because your UI become far less accessible to your code, so dynamic UI elements are very hard to code.


Adding a file to a project has never been a problem.  As others have said - put the file in your source folder where it is supposed to be and NetBeans "just works", same with Eclipse - though it may need to be manually refreshed so it sees the new file.

I can't imagine what you are expecting NetBeans to do for you in this case.  NetBeans is not a file manager, your OS has that.

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Offline kaffiene
« Reply #10 - Posted 2006-05-19 03:34:33 »

I would switch back to NetBeans (from Eclipse) if they improve the code editor.  It's just much faster for me to edit code in Eclipse because:
- there are more refactoring options,
- the refactoring workflow is smoother,
- the code auto-complete is much smarter,
- the auto-complete is much faster,
- the ability to change code while I am debugging it without restarting my app is a huge bonus

All that is true.  I believe that extended the refactoring options is on the agenda for the next version, but that doesn't help you right now  Smiley

I like the NetBeans profiler  (though I have an app that hangs when it runs under the profiler, sigh...)
I like that NetBeans will make an Ant build file for me.
I hate that NetBeans projects force me to make a single JAR when I want logical separation of the classes into different Jars (custom ant scripts can deal with that of course, but such projects are a bit crippled in the IDE)
I don't mind the GUI editor (Matisse) much , but find that it is often still more trouble than it is worth because your UI become far less accessible to your code, so dynamic UI elements are very hard to code.

Regarding the single jar issue - the approach I take is to have a project per jar file.  You can make any project depend on another, so any edits will cause the required rebuilds to occur.

As for Matisse - I hear what you're saying.  I find that if you enter your code snippets via the GUI builder interface you get that brittleness that GUI builders are reknowned for.  But... you can keep GUI and logic totally seperate if you want.  What I do when using Matisse is to draw up the GUI and name the bits that I want to hook into (such as buttons), then in my main code, just add listeners to the named objects.  Keeps all the logic in code and GUI in the GUI builder.  Works for adding stuff to GUI components as well - name the component in the GUI and grab that name in code and add to / manipulate as per usual.

Adding a file to a project has never been a problem.  As others have said - put the file in your source folder where it is supposed to be and NetBeans "just works", same with Eclipse - though it may need to be manually refreshed so it sees the new file.

I can't imagine what you are expecting NetBeans to do for you in this case.  NetBeans is not a file manager, your OS has that.

'Zactly - that was the bit that got me a tad exasperated - there are reasons to like Eclipse - which you mention, but not being able to add files is a not a reason to dislike NB unless you have no clue how it works. 

Personally speaking, I think it was the non support of Java5  that made me switch to NB from Eclipse.  They're both good IDEs, thou, and I do think the compition between them is good for us all.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #11 - Posted 2006-05-19 04:22:06 »

Personally speaking, I think it was the non support of Java5  that made me switch to NB from Eclipse.  They're both good IDEs, thou, and I do think the compition between them is good for us all.

I can't disagree with that.  NetBeans in particular has improved tremendously since v3.  I use both IDEs now

Another thing I forgot to mention when comparing with Eclipse is the automatic compilation on every save...  it really speeds things up combined with not having to relaunch the app.  Half the time I'm coding the application is running in the Eclipse debugger at the same time.  It would be great if NetBeans did something similar.. even if it did take a second or two longer.   There have been several times when using NetBeans that I wonder why my code is behaving as if the fix I just made wasn't applied - because I forgot to actually do a compile of course Smiley... I just have gotten used to having the code ready to run all the time without thinking about it.

I don't like using separate projects to get separate jars because then I have to split my source tree and organize my projects differently in Subversion.  I already have multiple projects with dependencies, but I like to split out things like resources versus classes into different jars.

Offline ryanm

Senior Member


Projects: 1


Used to be bleb


« Reply #12 - Posted 2006-05-19 09:01:02 »

I've never used an IDE for Java.. I've always used notepad for every java app (private apps and ones I get paid to do). it fails me not, and my bosses love me oO;

I used to be the same, and then I saw the light. Seriously, try it for a couple of weeks and you will never go back.

The downsides are that I find myself trying to ctrl-space things in other apps, wondering why the computer can't read my mind.
Also it's now extremely tedious to write code manually.
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #13 - Posted 2006-05-19 13:19:37 »

I used to be solely Emacs based, but Eclipse convinced me that Java IDEs were worth changing for.  Grin
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #14 - Posted 2006-05-19 15:10:29 »

Quote
WTF?

You drop the sodding file into the src directory.  Done!
No, not done. If that was done that way then I wouldn't have a problem with it. In versions 3 and 4 that was all you had to do. The current version has some weird thing that means that what you see in the file and project explorer is completely different to what is actually in the directory and there I could find no way to make them sync up. I'm sure there is a way somewhere deep in the depths of the IDE, I don't care. If they want programmers to be using their product, especially if there is a more than viable competitor, they have to make things work the way their users expect them to. Make them so that you can just drop source files into the src directory and it's done, you could perhaps have an include/exclude files option on a right click like Visual Studio does but it should be no more complex than that.

It's like they have gone out of their way to implement complex and clever features and completely forgotten the basic needs of their users.
Quote
NetBeans since version 4 has been a better IDE for me than Eclipse (which I used to use exclusively).  Yes, the NB3 version was crap, but FFS, why the hell are you using that and not the much-improved newer versions???
Since version 3, not I am still using version 3. But thanks for ignoring what I wrote and assuming I'm retarded, I appreciate that.

In fairness, if you haven't run into the problem - maybe you're running a different version of Netbeans from before it was broken - I can see that you would think it was a really odd post, but I've been around here a long time which doesn't put me above criticism but it should at least suggest that I'm not going to be making the worst of n00b mistakes. There is a feature of the version of Netbeans that I have just upgraded to which means you can't add existing files to your source tree.
Offline CommanderKeith
« Reply #15 - Posted 2006-05-19 16:12:23 »

I dumped my JCreator-made source files in the NetBeans src folder and it worked fine.
To add my 2c worth:
I like NetBeans for its auto-jarring & its profiler (especially heap analysis).  I hate the way its so slow, clunky & has a busy UI.

JCreator is better in the above respects & it is the only option on slow machines (runs even on my 800MHz box).  But I feel bad that I develop Java on a non-Java IDE... Undecided

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 51
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #16 - Posted 2006-05-19 16:42:58 »

JCreator is better in the above respects & it is the only option on slow machines (runs even on my 800MHz box).  But I feel bad that I develop Java on a non-Java IDE... Undecided
You should give Eclipse a try - I used to use it on my old 800Mhz system and it was plenty fast enough (assuming you have enough ram). Eclipse seems to have got faster since then too. Grin

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Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #17 - Posted 2006-05-19 22:36:12 »

Quote
WTF?

You drop the sodding file into the src directory.  Done!
No, not done. If that was done that way then I wouldn't have a problem with it. In versions 3 and 4 that was all you had to do. The current version ...

Quote
Since version 3, not I am still using version 3. But thanks for ignoring what I wrote and assuming I'm retarded, I appreciate that.

In fairness, if you haven't run into the problem - maybe you're running a different version of Netbeans from before it was broken - I can see that you would think it was a really odd post, but I've been around here a long time which doesn't put me above criticism but it should at least suggest that I'm not going to be making the worst of n00b mistakes. There is a feature of the version of Netbeans that I have just upgraded to which means you can't add existing files to your source tree.


Just what version EXACTLY are you using?  You have posted twice with vague references to some version after version 3, and that version 4 worked as we have stated...  You suggest the "current" version... which might mean 5.5 beta, or 5.0.

I'm using Netbeans 5.0 and it does work by just putting the files in the appropriate place under the src folder.  If that isn't working for you, then something has gone wrong with your particular configuration.

Was your project converted from an Eclipse project, or anything that might make it different from a typical Java Application project?

Offline harry@dayfamilyweb

Junior Member





« Reply #18 - Posted 2006-05-19 23:54:56 »

Quote
WTF?

You drop the sodding file into the src directory.  Done!
No, not done. If that was done that way then I wouldn't have a problem with it. In versions 3 and 4 that was all you had to do. The current version has some weird thing that means that what you see in the file and project explorer is completely different to what is actually in the directory and there I could find no way to make them sync up. I'm sure there is a way somewhere deep in the depths of the IDE, I don't care. If they want programmers to be using their product, especially if there is a more than viable competitor, they have to make things work the way their users expect them to. Make them so that you can just drop source files into the src directory and it's done, you could perhaps have an include/exclude files option on a right click like Visual Studio does but it should be no more complex than that.

It's like they have gone out of their way to implement complex and clever features and completely forgotten the basic needs of their users.
Quote
NetBeans since version 4 has been a better IDE for me than Eclipse (which I used to use exclusively).  Yes, the NB3 version was crap, but FFS, why the hell are you using that and not the much-improved newer versions???
Since version 3, not I am still using version 3. But thanks for ignoring what I wrote and assuming I'm retarded, I appreciate that.

In fairness, if you haven't run into the problem - maybe you're running a different version of Netbeans from before it was broken - I can see that you would think it was a really odd post, but I've been around here a long time which doesn't put me above criticism but it should at least suggest that I'm not going to be making the worst of n00b mistakes. There is a feature of the version of Netbeans that I have just upgraded to which means you can't add existing files to your source tree.
incorrect unless your using netbean 5.5 beta (which i have not tyred) i drop code in the SRC folder you can event take a class from one project and cut it in to another (in the editor that is) and it changes all imports and packages Grin
plus i tried eclipse and i couldnot make head nor tail of it Tongue
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


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« Reply #19 - Posted 2006-05-20 19:35:59 »

I'd be REALLY wary of saying "you're wrong" when someone's got a bug in elcipse or NB. I've had a couple now where I've had dozens of people telling me I'm a liar, or a retarded moron, because it works on THEIR mahcines, so obivously it HAS to work on my machine too!

Each time, I've eventually found a root cause, usually different internal bugs in the guts of the IDE that have a knock-on effect that some basic functionality doesn't acutally work later on. e.g. copy/paste not working - that was a good one Smiley.

Or, last week ... I found that in eclipse if a source image file timestamp changes, and you do NOT refresh, you can cause your app to run at 1/20th the normal speed. God knows why Smiley but my guess is that it causes some glitch in the live-code-compilation, which gets its knickers in a twist. Took 3 days to discover that all I had to do was select the project and do a force-refresh (and, note, to all the self-righteous idiots: I have had hundreds of files get out of synch before, and never had this problem or anything like it. I generally refresh every now and then "just to be on teh safe side" Smiley)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2006-05-20 20:39:11 »

I'm using 5.0.  The project was imported from 4.something so maybe that is at the root cause it's probably because netbeans is installed somewhere other than the default location, but it's still really annoying.
Offline harry@dayfamilyweb

Junior Member





« Reply #21 - Posted 2006-05-20 23:39:06 »

importing works for me so it must be a problem with your installation of it must of my projects are from 5.0 there is only one problem that i have with netbeans and that is the faulty library (i think it is falty because of something i have done) Grin Cheesy Wink Smiley
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #22 - Posted 2006-05-21 23:51:58 »

It looks like I can see new files in my project directory if I put them into the directory before I first start Netbeans. Once it is running I am doomed and there is no way I can add anything new, even stopping netbeans and restarting it doesn't make them visible from any project or file views.

I'm sure it won't come up that often cos I only really use Java for games-writing stuff now and I don't get so much time for that so probably there'll be a new version before too long and maybe that will make it easier. Or more complicated.
Offline harry@dayfamilyweb

Junior Member





« Reply #23 - Posted 2006-05-22 09:27:32 »

i ve done that before and it worked Grin what version are you useing?
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #24 - Posted 2006-05-22 11:57:02 »

Whatever was up on the netbeans site as the current stable version a fortnight ago.
Offline harry@dayfamilyweb

Junior Member





« Reply #25 - Posted 2006-05-22 23:45:29 »

ok i thinks thats 5.0 Huh that is just weird becouse as i said before i do that all the time Shocked
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #26 - Posted 2006-05-25 12:14:16 »

I guess it's probably just a bug in my installation of the platform then.

I'll try and get around to submitting it to the Netbeans bug database when I have time on my hands...
Offline pepe

Junior Member




Nothing unreal exists


« Reply #27 - Posted 2006-06-05 15:28:01 »

Another thing I forgot to mention when comparing with Eclipse is the automatic compilation on every save...  it really speeds things up combined with not having to relaunch the app.  Half the time I'm coding the application is running in the Eclipse debugger at the same time.  It would be great if NetBeans did something similar.. even if it did take a second or two longer.   There have been several times when using NetBeans that I wonder why my code is behaving as if the fix I just made wasn't applied - because I forgot to actually do a compile of course Smiley... I just have gotten used to having the code ready to run all the time without thinking about it.
I'm not sure that this feature ought to be really fine. I use netbeans and also took as a habit to have my code always running in the debugger and submit hotfixes without restarting the program. When i save files they are not necessary intended to be submited as hotfix. Having the IDE doing it when not needed could/would break my running program more often than it would help me.
I prefer hitting the "apply code change" button myself when i estimate that it can be flwlessly submitted than letting the IDE do it for me all the time and break what's running.

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Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #28 - Posted 2006-06-05 16:54:47 »

Eclipse already detects when your changes will break things and tell you.

Cas Smiley

Offline pepe

Junior Member




Nothing unreal exists


« Reply #29 - Posted 2006-06-05 17:29:59 »

Eclipse already detects when your changes will break things and tell you.

Cas Smiley
I doubt it will detect that an algorithm that you saved in one file will lead to crash/instable state in one of a class that you intended to edit and save right after that one.. Wink Wink

Home page: http://frederic.barachant.com
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