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Offline woogley
« Posted 2006-05-16 21:29:04 »

so I've been developing version 2 of Java Unlimited for the past few weeks, which is due for release this november - 1 month before the biggest 4K yet starts!

I can't show you the whole site yet, but feast your eyes on the amazing header image that appears on every page (click for actual size):


(please refrain from your thunderous applause)

..seriously though, this post isnt here to show off logos. I actually just want to know if there's anything particular you dont like about the current site or some features you'd like to see. this is a good time to tell me before I finalize everything .. Tongue
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 78
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #1 - Posted 2006-05-16 22:01:10 »

hey looks nice, the java unlimited site is nice, however there are some feature i would like to see,

1) i'd love to say news section on the site where news is updated daily (theres not even a news page atm), there are very few sites, actually i know hardly any java gaming related sites i'd like to visit every daily (except this board) so thats why i'd like daily news feature, where you post stuff about java games, cool non java games, tech links, info/updates/changes on java projects like lwjgl/jogl/xith/java3d/etc, events and stuff happening in the indie world and other stuff java game/devs would like to read, maybe you could even get some more ppl to help add daily news, i'd bookmark it and add it to my list of daily sites to visit Smiley

2) Image of the Day, i know oNyx/aho has one and i have it on my rss feed but its been a little slow lately with the updates, maybe you guys can team up or something Smiley or have a link to it or section on the site that links to it or something (or maybe a tumbnail that points to latest picture in the corner). Cos i really do enjoy seeing new java game screenshots (yup it may sound sad, but i can't help it Wink)

3) would also like the ability to have user feedback on the games, where the users can leave one or two lines of what they though of the game or what bugs/glitches it has, and maybe even have a smallish user rating thing!

Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #2 - Posted 2006-05-17 20:45:47 »

This could be fixed by now, but just after the 4k competition I thought that the Navigation to the 4K games could do with a warm over.  Viewing the 2005 games or the 2006 games requires surfing round a few links to find one that points to the right place.

(Off topic a bit: We also need to decide whether Java 1.5 and hence pack200 is allowed this year, maybe we could sort out the rules in advance, so as to avoid last minute bickering)

Alan  Smiley


Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline woogley
« Reply #3 - Posted 2006-05-17 21:39:42 »

first off, thanks for the feedback! this is the first feedback I've ever gotten for the site really .. so that's very helpful

<offtopic>
now, for pack200. there won't be much bickering if I don't discuss it at all Wink. kidding of course. I *do* want to please as many people as I can, and thus far I've opened every decision up to the public, but pack200 *might* be one of those things where people are just going to have to suck it up.

pack200 is a great technology, I've heard of JARs being TWICE as compressed. and it wouldn't really be too much of a hassle deployment-wise, since this year everything is being deployed from Java Unlimited itself (so I don't have to take a week to archive everything later).

the problem with pack200 is that it throws out EVERY previous version of Java. we can't allow pack200 AND normal JARs, I mean.. the pack200 users will have a SIGNIFICANT advantage! plus, not everybody has upgraded to 1.5 to my knowledge, and seeing as Java Unlimited is in the casual games market, it's a good idea to keep JRE deployment to a minimum.

I dont know. I want to maximize the 4K games' capabilities and features, but I want I also want to maximize ease of play. in my humble opinion, pack200 shouldn't be allowed this year because it's just such a HUGE difference between java versions, we need to wait until Java 5 is as dominant as Java 1.3 and 1.4 is right now.

of course, we could always hold a separate contest specifically for pack200, say.. in the summer or something. but as far as the official 4K contest is concerned this winter, you might want to stay comfortable in your 1.4.2 shoes.. (to be continued sometime, I'm sure)
</offtopic>
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 830
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #4 - Posted 2006-05-17 21:50:10 »

Bit weird maybe, but I'd prefer a setup without compression, only 1 classfile.

Because this whole contest turned into a "who has the best zipper" event. When you zip your bytecode with WinZIP the result might be TWICE (yes) as big as the best zip-app-combo.

With only classfiles we'd have even grounds. Or maybe let the server run 3 dozen compression-combos on a supplied JAR and pick the best Smiley

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Offline woogley
« Reply #5 - Posted 2006-05-17 22:03:34 »

I like that idea of the server doing the zipping! except I'm too afraid to get THAT involved with the apps themselves (too easy for someone to cry "woogley's cheating!")

you cant really cant criticize people for using better jar compression without also criticizing them for doing 100s of tests to find the best image compression (pngout, pngcrush, inlining data, etc.) Smiley

the fact is, the 4K challenge doesnt just exist within your code Wink
Offline g666

Junior Devvie





« Reply #6 - Posted 2006-05-18 10:37:53 »

I think that if 1.5 is allowed then pack200 should be too, as it is a part of it. Simple as that really.

desperately seeking sanity
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #7 - Posted 2006-05-18 12:02:17 »

I think:

1- Java 5 must be allowed.. by the time the contest runs Java 6 will be out! (and people will be complaining that they can't use IT Smiley )

2- pack200, being a standard part of Java 5, must be allowed also.

I don't like the idea that the developers themselves hold back the adoption of a modern Java runtime because they are scared to use it. (Nobody seems to think twice about making people upgrade Flash, or RealPlayer, or other far less useful things)

Offline woogley
« Reply #8 - Posted 2006-05-18 13:49:42 »

updating Flash is TRIVIAL compared to updating Java. I mean, come on.. a Flash install is 930K and is done through the webbrowser alone. A Java install is at least 16MB and you have to go through the whole OS stuff just to install it (windows specifically). point being, Java isn't updated NEARLY as much as Flash is. based on  surveys I've done behind the scenes (through java unlimited), java 1.4 is still at 76% - and you have to remember, I get alot of DEVs visit my site (or so I think), not just random kiddie gamers! and yet 1.4 is on 3/4 of the users?!

it's not that I don't like 1.5, I do (I use it more than anything), but pack200 is just too much of a difference between just one Java version.  allowing pack200 pretty much means I'm killing off any previous Java version, because they don't have nearly the same compression. sure I can say "you can use Java 1.4 if you want," but that kinda makes it a 4K app versus an 8K app.

I duno, taboo taboo .. Roll Eyes

let's forget the whole Java version for a second. for years now we've been saying 4K is *the* perfect size. I'm against pack200 because we're turning it into an 8K practically! I just think that's too easy. one might say "twice the space means twice the features!" - but, there are loads of 4K games that barely use 3K as it is. if they had used pack200 they could've skipped almost all optimizations and gotten the same game, minus the challenge of creating it.

I'm sure I sound like a hypocrite since we've been using JARs for every contest. for one thing, JARs are available in EVERY Java version. pack200 is not. plus, like I said, the 4K limit (or whatever the "actual" limit is since we are using jars) is *perfect* - it's just the right level of challenge. pack200 would double the ease of this challenge, and that kinda ruins the whole thing.
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

« JGO Overlord »


Medals: 830
Projects: 4
Exp: 16 years


Hand over your head.


« Reply #9 - Posted 2006-05-18 13:55:07 »

Roughly the same applies for normal vs. extreme zipping, you can easily get factor 2 difference.

IIRC the people that got their jar compressed the best last year, were using pack200 to pack and unpack it, then zip it with various apps.

So basicly, even when you limit the JAR to Java 1.4, you still 'suffer' from pack200.

Hi, appreciate more people! Σ ♥ = ¾
Learn how to award medals... and work your way up the social rankings
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2006-05-19 00:05:00 »

updating Flash is TRIVIAL compared to updating Java. I mean, come on.. a Flash install is 930K and is done through the webbrowser alone. A Java install is at least 16MB and you have to go through the whole OS stuff just to install it (windows specifically).

Larger download size doesn't make an install any more difficult.

Java install can happen automatically through the browser on Windows.  You still will need to click "next" a few times.  The point being that at the least it is no harder than installing any other standard application.   In fact, once installed Java has a Java updater that will make sure you have the latest version by poping up in the system tray whn a new version is available... though I have to admit I'm not sure how well it works.


Quote
point being, Java isn't updated NEARLY as much as Flash is. based on  surveys I've done behind the scenes (through java unlimited), java 1.4 is still at 76% - and you have to remember, I get alot of DEVs visit my site (or so I think), not just random kiddie gamers! and yet 1.4 is on 3/4 of the users?!

Hmmm... not sure how reliable the source of your stats are though.   For example up until very recently Mac OS X would use 1.4 in the browser even if Java 5 was installed, unless the user explicitly went in and changed the default.  So they could be at Java 5 and you wouldn't know it.

Quote
it's not that I don't like 1.5, I do (I use it more than anything), but pack200 is just too much of a difference between just one Java version.  allowing pack200 pretty much means I'm killing off any previous Java version, because they don't have nearly the same compression. sure I can say "you can use Java 1.4 if you want," but that kinda makes it a 4K app versus an 8K app.

Good.  Then that will get Java 5 out to more desktops Smiley.

Quote
let's forget the whole Java version for a second. for years now we've been saying 4K is *the* perfect size. I'm against pack200 because we're turning it into an 8K practically! I just think that's too easy. one might say "twice the space means twice the features!" - but, there are loads of 4K games that barely use 3K as it is. if they had used pack200 they could've skipped almost all optimizations and gotten the same game, minus the challenge of creating it.

Let's wait until we have some real-world data on how much pack200 buys us for a 4k game... I'm thinking that it won't help at all for things like level data and images.. and combined with whatever constant overhead there is it might not be such a great difference.

Quote
like I said, the 4K limit (or whatever the "actual" limit is since we are using jars) is *perfect* - it's just the right level of challenge. pack200 would double the ease of this challenge, and that kinda ruins the whole thing.

I think the contest will find a new balance naturally...  One thing you can try though is to run pack200 on all of last years entries to see how they change in size.  That will at least give use some true measurements to base the decision on.

Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #11 - Posted 2006-05-19 05:25:03 »

Let's wait until we have so real-world data on how much pack200 buys us for a 4k game... I'm thinking that it won't help at all for things like level data and images.. and combined with whatever constant overhead there is it might not be such a great difference.
...
I think the contest will find a new balance naturally...  One thing you can try though is to run pack200 on all of last years entries to see how they change in size.  That will at least give use some true measurements to base the decision on.

I thought the same way until I tried the above just before last years contest.  The main benefit was when you had multiple class files, but there was still a useful decrease in size when there was only one.  So while the main selling point is that it tokenises all the files as a whole rather than individually (greater compression), it must be doing other cleverness as well.

Maybe a compromise would be to base the competition on 1.4.2, but allow (optional) an enhanced java 1.5 version.  i.e. encourage people to upgrade to 1.5 by saying, "If you enjoyed this version, look at the extra features you could  have if you installed 1.5".  It's similar to the shareware concept, where you get extra features on stumping up some cash.  Ok it's a bit more work, but the contest does run for quite a while & it would be a gentle way of breaking into java 1.5.

My initial <offtopic> point seems to have hijacked this thread.  Sorry

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #12 - Posted 2006-05-19 06:32:22 »

>Java 5 must be allowed.. by the time the contest runs Java 6 will be out! (and people will be complaining that
>they can't use IT Smiley )

Heh. Yea there is a radial gradient in 1.6, which is very useful for generated graphics. I had to use weird loop constructs for that kind of effect.

---

Compressing on the server would be pretty annoying. Towards the end you tend to compile/compress it after each little change to see if it makes a difference.

And p200... mmh. 4k jars dont compress that well. Fuzetsu only got down to 3,289 (from 4,087). The difference is way bigger if you use multiple classes and additional methods. You could for example write proper code instead of that hackery. But seriously... who would do that? Wink

@topic

I agree with Alan_W's statement about the navigation. (But you can actually go straight to the 2005 4k games.)

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Anon666

Junior Devvie




aka Abuse/AbU5e/TehJumpingJawa


« Reply #13 - Posted 2006-05-30 12:40:38 »

If even one person downloads Java1.5 so they can play a 4K game that needs it - I will consider the competition a success.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #14 - Posted 2006-05-30 14:30:10 »

Well, a handful of people downloaded/installed Java (1.5) for playing fuzetsu Smiley

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline woogley
« Reply #15 - Posted 2006-05-30 16:28:24 »

If even one person downloads Java1.5 so they can play a 4K game that needs it - I will consider the competition a success.

i disagree. the contest is/was successful either way, since the goal wasn't to update your java runtime.. it was to create fun 4K games..

besides, this debate is over. for now. (it's not even the topic of this thread ...)
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