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  John Carmack on java games for cell phones  (Read 3955 times)
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Offline zparticle

Senior Member




Thick As A Brick


« Posted 2006-05-15 17:12:59 »

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12726642/site/newsweek/?GT1=8199

Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #1 - Posted 2006-05-15 18:53:27 »

Well the goods news is, he doesn't say anything bad about Java.

yea

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline zero

Junior Member





« Reply #2 - Posted 2006-05-15 21:10:36 »

and it seems as if he still uses J2ME (instead of BREW,..) Smiley
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Offline Spasi
« Reply #3 - Posted 2006-05-15 21:26:45 »

From another (recent) interview I've read, he's actually targeting BREW/native for "high-end" versions of his games and offer limited versions for J2ME.
Offline aldacron

Senior Member


Medals: 9
Exp: 16 years


Java games rock!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2006-05-16 04:37:53 »

From another (recent) interview I've read, he's actually targeting BREW/native for "high-end" versions of his games and offer limited versions for J2ME.

Carmack on Orcs & Elves in his blog.
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #5 - Posted 2006-05-16 09:39:09 »

Quote
...and we all liked developing on BREW a lot better than Java. It isn't that BREW is inherently brilliant, it just avoids the deep sucking nature of java for resource constrained platforms...

This is about the only thing he's saying about java.

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #6 - Posted 2006-05-16 14:45:28 »

OUCH!

Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


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« Reply #7 - Posted 2006-05-16 14:50:50 »

oh thats horrid Grin
Offline darkprophet

Senior Member




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #8 - Posted 2006-05-16 15:06:39 »

Maybe he really really doesn't understand how the JVM works ? This boggles me, because thats the only solution I can come up with...

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

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Offline erikd

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« Reply #9 - Posted 2006-05-16 15:21:23 »

Quote
Maybe he really really doesn't understand how the JVM works ? This boggles me, because thats the only solution I can come up with...

Remember that we're talking mobile java here, where there isn't such a thing as 'the jvm' as it's a different one on each phone, right? I can't really dismiss his statements. After all, he has got much more experience with developing games on mobiles than me.

Perhaps a more important thing to notice in his article is his notion that soon we'll have mobile phones with the power of something between an XBOX and an XBOX360. So then the 'for resource constrained platforms' argument will be void, which will make you wonder where BREW will be then. Especially when you consider that you don't have the same profit potential on mobiles that you have on consoles, so in effect less budget to develop games.

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Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #10 - Posted 2006-05-16 15:25:30 »

I kown few things about BREW but my guess is that portability is major issue with this tech. J2ME (or JME for purists) might be a clear winner because of that and because of the upcoming HotSpot CVM.

Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


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Mojang Specifications


« Reply #11 - Posted 2006-05-16 15:28:01 »

I've worked with j2me, and trust me.. it sucks.

I know, I know, people don't like it when you say anything bad about java. But, seriously, j2me is so bad it makes baby jesus cry.
No two phones work the same, it's EXTREMELY slow (no proper compilation does that), and it helps enforce the misconception that java in general sucks.

Play Minecraft!
Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #12 - Posted 2006-05-16 15:40:49 »

I've talked with one guy from Gameloft when I attended the Montreal Game summit last fall and he told me that J2ME game developpers are very good at optimizing the byte code of their games with optimizers. Not that it's a simple and particularly pleasant task. If a simple developper tries to develop something in J2ME by its own then I might not have the proper expertise to speed up its game and come up with conclusions like yours. But I'm not contradicting you about the lack of performance of CMV.

Offline Markus_Persson

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« Reply #13 - Posted 2006-05-16 16:22:23 »

It's not really possible to gain any major speed benefits by optimising the byte code.. we're talking an improvement of perhaps 10%, if you're lucky. And that still leaves java waaaay behind native apps.

(note that I'm talking specifically about CLDC and MIDP here, and that I realize this is the KVM implementor's fault. But the fact is still there.. it sucks)

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Offline OverKill

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #14 - Posted 2006-05-16 16:27:46 »

Remember that we're talking mobile java here, where there isn't such a thing as 'the jvm' as it's a different one on each phone, right?
Jep, and that is just the beginning.

I've worked with j2me, and trust me.. it sucks.

I know, I know, people don't like it when you say anything bad about java. But, seriously, j2me is so bad it makes baby jesus cry.
No two phones work the same, it's EXTREMELY slow (no proper compilation does that), and it helps enforce the misconception that java in general sucks.
I work with j2me prefessionally and yes, it sucks but only because the phone manufacturers do crazy stuff with their implementations.
That is not j2me's fault.
Everything in and around j2me revolves around what the phone manus do. If they give you a crappy version, there is not a flipping thing we can do.

And let us remember one thing, these are phones. J2me is an added bonus by them. The phone manus hope to sell more devices if it is on but, if you check out the effort they put into the sdks, you'd see they don't really give a crap.
We are happy to get working emulators.. and even better if they act nearly like the devices.

Quote
It's not really possible to gain any major speed benefits by optimising the byte code.. we're talking an improvement of perhaps 10%, if you're lucky. And that still leaves java waaaay behind native apps.
You can forget about getting your hands on the a system sdk.
Not to mention the systems are different for each device.

I've talked with one guy from Gameloft when I attended the Montreal Game summit last fall and he told me that J2ME game developpers are very good at optimizing the byte code of their games with optimizers. Not that it's a simple and particularly pleasant task. If a simple developper tries to develop something in J2ME by its own then I might not have the proper expertise to speed up its game and come up with conclusions like yours. But I'm not contradicting you about the lack of performance of CMV.
A single developer will not be able to know what will work on each device.
We have extensive documentations about all this stuff and a toolchain to match.

Also you want to reach as many customers as possible and that means covering everything from the low to high end.
S30/40/T610's slow as a snail with 96x65 & 64kb limit to SE750s with massive power and high res screens (compared to S30/S40s).

For as much as I respect John, stuff like this tears at that image.
Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #15 - Posted 2006-05-16 16:31:57 »

I'm just repeating what I was told at the conference. Maybe that person was simply a sales person after all and had misconceptions about J2ME performance???

Offline Markus_Persson

JGO Wizard


Medals: 14
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« Reply #16 - Posted 2006-05-16 16:42:51 »

I work with j2me prefessionally and yes, it sucks but only because the phone manufacturers do crazy stuff with their implementations.
That is not j2me's fault.

Yep, agreed.

However, since 90%+ of all j2me implementations suck, I think it's fair to say "j2me" sucks. ;-)
It meant well, though. The j2me specification is probably crying in a shower by now.

Play Minecraft!
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #17 - Posted 2006-05-16 16:58:54 »

well if every one is using there own implementation and they are incompatible then that defeats the whole purpose of using java in the first place, they would be better of just using a native version.
Offline OverKill

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #18 - Posted 2006-05-16 17:11:52 »

well if every one is using there own implementation and they are incompatible then that defeats the whole purpose of using java in the first place, they would be better of just using a native version.
But you won't get the system sdk!
We are stuck with some 3rd party thing, one way or another.
Offline Alan_W

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« Reply #19 - Posted 2006-05-16 20:04:00 »

Also you want to reach as many customers as possible and that means covering everything from the low to high end.
S30/40/T610's slow as a snail with 96x65 & 64kb limit to SE750s with massive power and high res screens (compared to S30/S40s).

I couldn't agree more.  I previously had a Siemens S55, which while generally a great phone for it's size (at the time) was so slow, that you couldn't draw the tiles for a 2D platform type game in real time, without using the siemens specific libraries.  Some lovely bugs in the event handling too, if you try to use the SMS library.  My current Sony ericcson 750i is about a factor of 10 faster, possibly more.

However from a games perspective, the awful keyboard support is a real limiting factor.  John's spot on in this comments there.  But then, its a phone not a hand-held game.

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
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