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  Optimal Linux Version for Java  (Read 14516 times)
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Offline mudman

Junior Member




Here we go again...


« Posted 2006-04-04 12:09:18 »

I'm getting a new comp and will probably be installing Linux on my old one.
Could anyone recommend a linux version that plays well with Java? Especially when it comes to networking with NIO.
Offline kappa
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« Reply #1 - Posted 2006-04-04 15:09:32 »

currently i'm using SUSE and i've found it to work very well with Java as well as being a very nice distro to use.
Offline Jeff

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« Reply #2 - Posted 2006-04-05 20:30:40 »

I use SUSE as well.

The biggest issue though wont be Java compatability, it will be 3D graphcis support in X.

Although i hear rumors that ATI is getting a bit better, i have NEVER gotten an ATI card to do acceleerated 3D graphics in Linux.  NVIdia linux support has always been and continues to be *much* better.

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Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2006-04-05 22:44:01 »

IMNSHO use Debian. It's possibly the only mainstream one that's entirely safe to use (proper, working, package management system). Readhat (and all derivatives) is completely useless, and IME suse could be broken (although if you have to choose between that and RH, theres no competition - suse is much much better).

(this is assuming you've already decided on linux, and not questioning BSD or other alternatives)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline ryanm

Senior Member


Projects: 1
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« Reply #4 - Posted 2006-04-06 00:14:54 »

Just to further muddy the waters, I'd recommend ubuntu or kubuntu. They're basically the same (differing only in the choice of window manager), and are based on Debian, so you get the apt-get loveliness that makes installing new programs trivially easy.
.
IME, it's an easier install than debian, although they do still stick to the same tiresome "GPL or death" ethos that means you'll have to jump through some hoops to play DVDs, MP3s and the like. I believe there's a script (Google for "automatix") that'll automate the hoop-jumping, but i haven't used it myself.

It ships with some hippy-friendly JVM that works, but very slowly. I installed Suns binary linux package into my home directory and edited the PATH in my .bashrc to find the Sun VM before the default, and all is well. There are probably cleaner solutions, but there you go.

The strongest point is that the support forums are very active and newb-friendly.
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #5 - Posted 2006-04-06 10:12:50 »

Just to further muddy the waters, I'd recommend ubuntu or kubuntu. They're basically the same (differing only in the choice of window manager), and are based on Debian, so you get the apt-get loveliness that makes installing new programs trivially easy.

Yeah, the most important feature is that it be a debian-based distro - anything debian is safe.

Quote
IME, it's an easier install than debian

I know what you mean, although debian-testing these days is easy enough for any programmer pretty much. I'd probably try one of the ones you list, except that debian is "easy enough", and I'm already using it Smiley.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline dsellars

Junior Member




Need to write more games


« Reply #6 - Posted 2006-04-06 10:45:03 »

I'll second Ubuntu.  Cool

Although I am far from a linux guru I found it relativly easy to set up and use the forums can be quite useful too. 

Dan
Offline mudman

Junior Member




Here we go again...


« Reply #7 - Posted 2006-04-06 11:03:43 »

Thanks. I already considered Ubuntu because installation is supposed to be very easy.
I have a GeForce 3 on the old comp so I'll not worry about ATI issues - anyway my gaming box will obviously be my new comp since it'll be an Atlon64 X2 3800+ with 2 GB Ram and a GeForce 7800 GT running Windows XP Pro Smiley
I'll be using the old one mainly for running the server for the game I'm working on, + testing for Linux compatibility of the client and performance on low-end boxes.
Offline kappa
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« Reply #8 - Posted 2006-04-06 11:38:29 »

installation is easy on almost all linux disto's nowadays (except the hardcore variants) so i wouldn't worry about that, gone are the days of difficult linux installs.
Offline zero

Junior Member





« Reply #9 - Posted 2006-04-06 13:17:29 »

I also use ubuntu and like it very much.  Smiley

I used to run fedora core, which I still do for me server, but ubuntu was the first linux where everything worked out-of-the box or was available through a online repository (DVD,MP3 and windows codecs*). but as kapta said, most is probably true for other distros as well..


* yes, I own a windows xp copy so it is legal to use them
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Offline Jeff

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Got any cats?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2006-04-06 18:19:25 »

I kidna curious what BBB emans by "safe" and how he can ensure a Debian build is any more/less broken then any other.

FWIW I've been using SUSE for over a year with good expereinces.  The only tme I broke (screwed up naupdate) fixing it was as easy as going into YAST and telling it to update the broken parts back to unbroken.


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Offline CaptainJester

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« Reply #11 - Posted 2006-04-06 19:00:10 »

I have had no real problems with Gentoo x86.  The only problem is my sound card was not detected.  I just haven't taken the time to see if a driver is available for it yet.

I have tried all of the following with no success:

Gentoo AMD64 - no 64bit network driver for my onboard Gigabit lan
Suse, Slackware, Ubuntoo and Fedora - installation failed with no clear explanation

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #12 - Posted 2006-04-06 21:55:57 »

I have had no real problems with Gentoo x86.  The only problem is my sound card was not detected.  I just haven't taken the time to see if a driver is available for it yet.

I have tried all of the following with no success:

Gentoo AMD64 - no 64bit network driver for my onboard Gigabit lan
Suse, Slackware, Ubuntoo and Fedora - installation failed with no clear explanation


SUSE installtion is usually extremely reliable.

However if you have a sony laptop (liek i have) you do have to specify a few command line parameters to the kernel/

Theya re well known and documented on the net and I have them erhe somewhere if anyone needs them.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline zero

Junior Member





« Reply #13 - Posted 2006-04-07 03:44:58 »

@Jeff:
How about current versions about Novell's SUSE and SUN's Java?

I bringing this up because SUSE used to have a good support on both SUN's J2SE and J2EE, but it is not a secret that Novell now favors Mono over Java. (at least as plattform, since they argue mono is capable of compiling java code)

I must must confess that I'm not well informed about the current situation, but about a year ago or so, there were many discussions whether Java or C# should be the next default language for gnome applications. Of course Novell was in favor of C# and because they are the main contributier to Mono and some redhat guys argued for Java with OpenOffice already being based on ...
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #14 - Posted 2006-04-07 12:23:59 »

I kidna curious what BBB emans by "safe" and how he can ensure a Debian build is any more/less broken then any other.

Give me a Redhat machine and I can make it physically impossible for you to recompile your kernel, simply by installing an odd combination of downloaded RPMs. The only way you can fix it is by *manually* editing your RPM database and/or *manually* finding and deleting files on your hard disk. Go figure! Smiley

Quote
FWIW I've been using SUSE for over a year with good expereinces.  The only tme I broke (screwed up naupdate) fixing it was as easy as going into YAST and telling it to update the broken parts back to unbroken.

It's not actually possible to do this to a debian machine - you can't screw up an update.

All dependency management is fully automated, so if for instance you "install mysql" it will automatically find and install the precise correct versions of all additional libraries as necessary. When you later uninstall mysql, it will automatically *un-install* precisely those of the libraries that were only in use by MySQL - if they are also in use by any other package, they will be left behind.

All packages are stored in two ways: the application files, and the config files. When you uninstall a thing, by default it leaves the config files behind, so that if it was a mistake, you can reinstall it and dont have to reconfigure. If you broke the configuration, you don't need to uninstall + reinstall, you just need to ask it to "reconfigure" that package.

Equally, when you upgrade a package, it knows which files were config files, and during the install *automatically* tells you the differences between your config file and the new default config file that comes with the upgrade. You can choose to keep your customised config, or to allow it to be overwritten by the new one (e.g. if the new config file includes new options for the new version that didnt exist before, and you dont want the hassle of manually adding them).

Shrug. All this could have been in RH and co many years ago, but ... it wasn't.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2006-04-07 12:44:35 »

I kidna curious what BBB emans by "safe" and how he can ensure a Debian build is any more/less broken then any other.

Give me a Redhat machine and I can make it physically impossible for you to recompile your kernel, simply by installing an odd combination of downloaded RPMs.

Any operating system that would EVER require the USER to build it is crap.   So it's not like that is a "real" problem.  If you are nerdy enough to be compiling the kernel you probably are nerdy enough to follow advice like "Use the source! Luke", where you basically build everything from scratch Smiley ... packaged software - crazy talk!

I have recently installed both SUSE and Ubuntu.  SUSE definitely has a nicer interface for installing and managing the machine.   Ubuntu still uses a text-mode installer believe it or not!  SUSE has better support for Sun's Java.

I suspect you are quite right about the Debian-based package management being far better than the Red-Hat junk.  But I haven't done enough yet to know if it matters.  All I do know is that Ubuntu doesn't have good support for installing a Sun JRE, and Sun doesn't supply Debian-based package downloads.  The .bin download for the JRE doesn't install properly... it installs all the files, but you are still left with some GNU crud when you type 'java' and there is no tool for configuring which JRE you would like to use.  You have to set up many symlinks manually after the install to make it usable.  Ubuntu has instructions for installing the Sun JRE, you have to search for them.  The process involves repackaging the Sun download first.. and ultimately the instructions don't work because if you follow them exactly they simply fail with errors a couple steps in.

My conclusion is that the optimal version of Linux for Java is any version you can bloody make work Smiley

[flamemode]Linux still needs a decade or two of work before it will be a serious contender for a desktop operating system.  Today it is still a joke because you have to be a major unix nerd to do anything with it.  To Linux I say, "get a UI"[/flamemode]

Offline princec

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« Reply #16 - Posted 2006-04-07 14:31:08 »

What is the point when you can have MacOS after all?

Cas Smiley

Offline darkprophet

Senior Member




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #17 - Posted 2006-04-07 14:41:26 »

cause macs are dam expensive for what your getting!

DP

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Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #18 - Posted 2006-04-07 14:47:30 »

>back to the topic : I recommand Ubuntu as well. I'm using the Dapper (beta version) release and I'm happy with that.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2006-04-07 15:09:46 »

cause macs are dam expensive for what your getting!

Remember that old saying: You get what you pay for.

Sure if you add up the hardware components one by one it seems pricey.. but then you have to consider the time saved with configuring and maintenance.   If you were stripping them for parts the Mac is not cost effective... if you want a usable computer it pays for the extra cost many times over. 

Not to mention that it comes with a polished, complete, IDE, ftp server and Apache, the popular scripting languages you would expect to find on a unix machine, and some nice software, like iLife - included free.

... ok I'll get back on topic myself...

as for Ubuntu..as a Linux distro is seems decent... it is far less bloated than most distribtutions which seem to think it is a good idea to install every shitty piece of open source crud ever created.  E.g. I'm not ever going to open AbiWord when I have OpenOffice installed...  Most media players on Linux simply don't work well at all.. most distros install them all (though they often omit one of the best, VLC) so you are left to open a media file in 4 or 5 different programs before you manage to get it to play both the audio and the video.. Even Ubuntu screws this up by not installing any of the popular codecs.. so you get a media player that doesn't know how to play anything until you find some magic perl scripts that install codecs for you.

But when you do finally get some of that set up Ubuntu seems reasonable...  though the Java setup is a major pain..  so specifically for Java I can't recommend it as being "optimal" it most certainly is not optimal for Java.  All it gives you out of the box is a crippled GNU thing that calls itself Java.
SUSE has a much smoother install of Java.. if you can tolerate using a version or two behind the latest update.
If you want to install the latest Java from  Sun,  neither SUSE or Ubuntu do a good job, but I think SUSE might handle it slightly better.

I have seen NO Linux distro that installs Sun Java as smoothly as Windows or Mac. (Mac having Apple's direct port of Sun's Java with only the changes needed to make it work on OS X and PowerPC, which does lag in availability from what you can get from Sun).  The Linux experience of installing and using Java don't come close by a long shot.  Given that if you want the latest Sun Java, you are going to have to fight your way through a Linux software install of something that doesn't come pre-packaged with the distro (an experience which almost always makes you want to kill yourself).. I stand by my statement that you should use whatever you can get to work and should realize that it will be an annoying experience regardless of your choice.  Getting Sun Java properly integrated with Ubuntu appears to be slightly more difficult than getting it working on SUSE.. but SUSE doesn't seem to try to manage it as much as Ubuntu.

Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #20 - Posted 2006-04-07 15:15:48 »

I didn't had any problems with installing Java on Ubuntu.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=76702 for those who wants to do so.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2006-04-07 17:09:13 »

That is the thread of instructions that I followed before.  They don't work.  I'm not saying they didn't work for you, but there is obviously a dependancy that is not mentioned in the thread that you had already satisfied.

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #22 - Posted 2006-04-07 20:15:39 »

I have seen NO Linux distro that installs Sun Java as smoothly as Windows or Mac.  slightly more difficult than getting it working on SUSE.. but SUSE doesn't seem to try to manage it as much as Ubuntu.

Actually itys VERY smooth under SUSE  **if** you add the extra update repositories as the website recommends and then do an update.

There is an issue I guess that the license doesnt make it easy for them to redistribute Java (at least for free) so they need to do the install from the Sun online presance.  Having said that, the SUSE install solution works pretty well.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #23 - Posted 2006-04-08 11:58:56 »

That is the thread of instructions that I followed before.  They don't work.  I'm not saying they didn't work for you, but there is obviously a dependancy that is not mentioned in the thread that you had already satisfied.
Say, I didn't followed these instructions, but I thought they were working.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline dsellars

Junior Member




Need to write more games


« Reply #24 - Posted 2006-04-08 16:18:54 »

It was quite a while ago now but I don't seem to remember insalling the latest java to me too much trouble on Ubuntu when I was did it.. I just searched the froums and chose the most uptodate set of instructions I could find.  And believe me me I am far from a linuc nerd.  Theer do seem to be a number of differnt ways to do it.  Soem bettter/easier than others though.

Oh well each to their own I suppose.

Although all that said, my dream is to own a mac Smiley

Dan.

 
Offline Chman

Junior Member




Nothing more that... Java games are cool !


« Reply #25 - Posted 2006-04-14 04:40:40 »

Quote
I have seen NO Linux distro that installs Sun Java as smoothly as Windows or Mac.
Java works great with Archlinux. Just type

1  
2  
3  
$ pacman -S j2sdk
or
$ pacman -S j2re


And there you are... It's all I did and I can play cas' games through javawebstart without any problem.

Last time I checked Ubuntu, Java worked almost out-of-the-box, just need to replace gcc... Aptitude should be able to do it manually. Oh, wait, aptitude is not so great Tongue

Quote
When you later uninstall mysql, it will automatically *un-install* precisely those of the libraries that were only in use by MySQL
I use Debian on my server (and used it before on my main desktop computer), I don't remember aptitude being capable of this. Aptitude can't recursively remove unused dependencies. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Offline arne

Senior Member




money is the worst drug- we should not let it rule


« Reply #26 - Posted 2006-04-14 09:10:07 »

the problem with Linux is, that all distros do stuff differntly, even if it's the same OS. So writing an out-of-the-Box installer, where you only have to click 'Ok' and 'Next' is probably not that easy, especially if it should create Links at all the important places the distro is keeping for installed programs.

:: JOODE :: Xith3d :: OdeJava ::
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #27 - Posted 2006-04-14 13:13:14 »

Any operating system that would EVER require the USER to build it is crap.   So it's not like that is a "real" problem.  If you are nerdy enough to be compiling the kernel you probably are nerdy enough to follow advice like "Use the source! Luke", where you basically build everything from scratch Smiley ... packaged software - crazy talk!

Even windows builds custom kernels during the install process, and occasionally requires the user to rebuild it - for instance if you upgrade your mobo. Although, its carefully wrapped up in other language and 99% of the choices are automatically done instead of being rpesented to the user as questions, as in menuconfig.

Quote
The .bin download for the JRE doesn't install properly... it installs all the files, but you are still left with some GNU crud when you type 'java' and there is no tool for configuring which JRE you would like to use.

* blahblahblahh points upwards to his previous post

it is NOT POSSIBLE to screw up your install using pacakges on debian based distros, and as part of that it is generally difficult if not impossible for user-installed "random-crap" (from a package-based OS's perspective, anything not in a package is dangerous, bad, and evil) to break currently installed packages.

If you just installed java as a .deb package, it would work. What you tried to do was partially break an existing package by downloading and copying onto your hard disk (NB: not "installing") "random crap" that comes with no uninstaller. NB: I'm not criticising you here, just putting it into perspective. What I see most frustrating for newcomers to debian is that fundamental issues like this one are NOT EXPLAINED during the initial install - it would save so much pain if they were! Likewise, newcomers should NEVER be told to use the abominable apt-get, when debian comes with a program with a decent (not excellent) UI - aptitude.

Quote
The process involves repackaging the Sun download first.. and ultimately the instructions don't work because if you follow them exactly they simply fail with errors a couple steps in.

This would presumably be the script I referred to earlier, which used to work perfectly for java 1.1.x up to 1.4.x, but then broke on sun's 1.5.x. They really really need to fix it Sad.
Quote
Quote

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #28 - Posted 2006-04-14 13:19:41 »

the problem with Linux is, that all distros do stuff differntly, even if it's the same OS. So writing an out-of-the-Box installer, where you only have to click 'Ok' and 'Next' is probably not that easy, especially if it should create Links at all the important places the distro is keeping for installed programs.
Hey, arne you're kidding man.. Just take a look at : http://www.autopackage.org/. These men did great work, really.. If I had to compile my game with GCJ and distribute it under Linux, I would autopackage it.. seems really great !

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #29 - Posted 2006-04-14 15:20:43 »

Quote
When you later uninstall mysql, it will automatically *un-install* precisely those of the libraries that were only in use by MySQL
I use Debian on my server (and used it before on my main desktop computer), I don't remember aptitude being capable of this. Aptitude can't recursively remove unused dependencies. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Um. This is a major part of the core design of aptitude et al - recursively removing unused dependencies is partly why they exist in the first place Smiley.

So, yes, it definitely does do that Cheesy.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
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