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  Optimal Linux Version for Java  (Read 14393 times)
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Offline f.l.x

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there is no place like 127.0.0.1


« Reply #60 - Posted 2006-04-22 14:39:01 »

ok, swp you really should stick to windows, why are you even trying?

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Offline swpalmer

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Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #61 - Posted 2006-04-22 16:47:06 »

ok, swp you really should stick to windows, why are you even trying?

Interesting... given all the evidence that points to Linux suckage you now attack me instead of admitting the problems with Linux.  It's a common tactic of debaters that see they are losing.  Attack the person, not the issue.

But since you asked:

1) I don't like Windows.. I only use it because there are no alternatives that work.  I would rather not have to use it.
2) Sometimes I don't have a Mac handy.
3) To point out how far behind Linux really is, so others can avoid the suffering.

This thread asks "what is the optimal Linux version for Java?"   I just figured it made sense to point out what the original poster was in for.

Offline swpalmer

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Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #62 - Posted 2006-04-22 16:54:24 »

the 686 versionseems to have problem. have you tried the 386 version ?

http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/base/kernel-image-2.4.27-2-386-smp

I have not.   Is it safe to go back to a 2.4 kernel?  Dapper installed a 2.6 kernel so I wasn't sure if it needed it.

Is there a reason the 386-smp package doesn't show up in Synaptic Package Manager?  Oh wait... the URL you provided doesn't exist either.  There is no kernel-image-2.4.27-2-386-smp package at
http://packages.ubuntu.com/dapper/base/

btw. Is there a GUI to congifure the boot menu?


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Offline ryanm

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« Reply #63 - Posted 2006-04-22 17:31:43 »

btw. Is there a GUI to configure the boot menu?

Not that I've found, you have to edit /boot/grub/menu.lst. It's easy-peasy.
Offline swpalmer

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Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #64 - Posted 2006-04-22 17:44:30 »

Another question is: How do I uninstall the kernel images I'm not using?  They don't show up in the package manager.   It gets irritating to have to scroll down through a bunch of boot options I will ever use when selecting something that isn't the default... but I don't want to just remove it from the grub menu.

Offline ryanm

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« Reply #65 - Posted 2006-04-22 18:06:08 »

Move them to the end of the menu?

On the other hand, if you never going to use them, why not remove the entries from the menu?

I agree it's mildly annoying to have the images hanging around, but it's not like storage is a precious resource or anything...
Offline f.l.x

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Projects: 3


there is no place like 127.0.0.1


« Reply #66 - Posted 2006-04-22 20:01:39 »

Interesting... given all the evidence that points to Linux suckage you now attack me instead of admitting the problems with Linux.  It's a common tactic of debaters that see they are losing.  Attack the person, not the issue.
I'm not attacking you, i'm sorry if it sounded so. I've never found so dificult to set up a linux box, and how you are giving that linux is crap just because you have to do some things for yourself, even in ubuntu, the most polished and user-friendly out of the box distro i've tried. I'm just pointing that if you want it easy, stick to win (if mac is not an option,  of course) .

btw, you can remove linux images with apt-get remove kernel-image-your-version or use the search feature in synaptic (if you don't have the synaptic package manager, apt-get install synaptic)

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« Reply #67 - Posted 2006-04-22 20:26:36 »

personally i found the move to linux pretty easy and didn't really run into all the headaches ppl complain about, i started with newbie style distro's namely (Xandros and Lindows "Linspire") had no problems getting the system up and running and getting it to do what i want.

if you are having a hard time with the distro you are using make sure you have chosen one that is really what you are expecting, lots of ppl i've met complain about problems with linux and how they can't use it when they try to use hardcore distro's like gentoo and plain debian.

if you really do want to switch to linux make sure you pick a distro that meets your requirements and not try to force any old linux distro to work for you, remember linux is only a kernel and the rest of the OS is really something you need to consider too!!!
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #68 - Posted 2006-04-22 21:57:11 »

Interesting... given all the evidence that points to Linux suckage you now attack me instead of admitting the problems with Linux.  It's a common tactic of debaters that see they are losing.  Attack the person, not the issue.
I'm not attacking you, i'm sorry if it sounded so. I've never found so dificult to set up a linux box, and how you are giving that linux is crap just because you have to do some things for yourself, even in ubuntu, the most polished and user-friendly out of the box distro i've tried. I'm just pointing that if you want it easy, stick to win (if mac is not an option,  of course) .


If you've never found it so hard, you haven't really dont much installing to speak of. You would have to be extremely lucky not to have experienced at least some of SWP's problems here, and extremely unusual to have a normal gaming desktop system [EDIT: i.e. a few years old with a couple of upgrades you did by buying new bits from bestbuy/pcworld/whoever - like graphics card, perhaps wireless mouse, etc] and not experienced a mostly similar set of problems (I say from long and bitter experience, having run debian alone on various laptops and many desktops as well as the servers).

I would also like to point out, whilst I'm here, that kernel upgrading on linux is - in 2006 - still as optional for desktop systems as MS Windows Updates are. i.e. you're a crazy lunatic if you think twice about doing it. Have a look at the bugfixes in everything from 2.6.0 upwards. It's *not* optional.

(hint: they finally supported SATA hard drives, they made networking actually work for the first time at full speed like (IIRC) netBSD, they cleared up a bunch of sound stuff, made USB2 work properly, etc etc - right now I dont have a list, these are off the top of my head some of the worst problems I recall that have forced my hand in upgrades in the past - any mistakes my own!)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #69 - Posted 2006-04-22 22:12:19 »

Interesting... given all the evidence that points to Linux suckage you now attack me instead of admitting the problems with Linux.  It's a common tactic of debaters that see they are losing.  Attack the person, not the issue.
I'm not attacking you, i'm sorry if it sounded so. I've never found so dificult to set up a linux box, and how you are giving that linux is crap just because you have to do some things for yourself, even in ubuntu, the most polished and user-friendly out of the box distro i've tried. I'm just pointing that if you want it easy, stick to win (if mac is not an option,  of course) .

btw, you can remove linux images with apt-get remove kernel-image-your-version or use the search feature in synaptic (if you don't have the synaptic package manager, apt-get install synaptic)

The search feature of Synaptic does not show most of the kernel versions that are available to me in theboot menu.  Guessing cryptic package names to supply to "apt-get remove" will be fun...

Please note that the basis of my Linux complaint is not "that I have to do some things myself".. it is that doing those things (or even knowning that they need to be done) is extremely non-inuitive compared to the other operating systems available, and that in many cases once you've found the instructions, they don't work.   It's only a secondary complaint that the current distributions don't automate many things that should be automated.
Is it unreasonable to expect Linux to work "out of the box"?  Im simply comparing my linux experiences with those of other operating systems and linux is clearly at the bottom based on my own experiences.  It's so bad that I have to question how people can claim to not have such problems because there are so many issues that I find it highly improbable that people have managed to avoid all of them.

For the record I'm writing this response on Ubuntu Linux 6.06 (Dapper Drake beta)...  I am forcing myself to use it for a few weeks in an effort to unbias myself.  Simply becoming more familiar with it is helping for some things, but I discover new issues as well.  For example the GUI is noticably slower than Windows, which in turn is noteably slower than Mac - some of that is percieved speed vs. actual speed.  For example on the Mac the UI is double buffered so you NEVER see a window leave "trails" behind while the UIs of various "uncovered" programs try to catch up with the repaints - it's a simple thing that may ultimately reduce performance in some ways, but it greatly improves the "quality" of the user experience, giving applications a much more polished look and feel.

I've been trying Linux for years.. back with Slackware something or other, then a few versions of RedHat, there was one that came with my Linksys router that was ok, then SuSE, I tried Gentoo once - but the installation experience was so broken (i.e. too much owrk to get the thing to even install) it didn't go very far.

Now on the recommendation of some of the folks here, I'm trying Ubuntu.. fundamentally I appreciate some of the things Ubunut is trying to do (i.e. include less crap).  The Debian based package system does appear to be giving me less problems with "package dependecy hell".  Though ultimately it is still an awkward, occasionally painful, experience.

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Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #70 - Posted 2006-04-22 22:25:59 »

For example the GUI is noticably slower than Windows, which in turn is noteably slower than Mac - some of that is percieved speed vs. actual speed.  For example on the Mac the UI is double buffered so you NEVER see a window leave "trails" behind while the UIs of various "uncovered" programs try to catch up with the repaints - it's a simple thing that may ultimately reduce performance in some ways, but it greatly improves the "quality" of the user experience, giving applications a much more polished look and feel.

Bug in your video card driver (on windows, and on linux) - windows hasnt done that for years if your driver was good enough, ditto linux.

With decent drivers, and having now used approx 12 different macs (all running 10.2 then 10.3 then 10.4, mixture of G4's, G5's, ibooks, powerbooks and mac minis) I have to say that the windowing system is noticeably less snappy than windows XP in one way, and better in another. It's considerably worse at just general using apps - redraw times suck and scrolling within apps is consistently noticeably slower. Its better in that its fast switching is often fast *even if the foreground app has crashed* (although there are still times when its fast switching takes tens of seconds, it does this less readily than windows does).

Quote
The Debian based package system does appear to be giving me less problems with "package dependecy hell".  Though ultimately it is still an awkward, occasionally painful, experience.

Sorry aptitude was worse for you than I described it - its overly terse on using letters as icons (i/b/p etc to indicate package status) but the popup help menu describes 98% of what you need to know. However, I think if you stick with debian long enough you'll see the beaty of, for instance, automatically-installed packages.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline f.l.x

Senior Member


Projects: 3


there is no place like 127.0.0.1


« Reply #71 - Posted 2006-04-23 00:24:50 »

If you've never found it so hard, you haven't really dont much installing to speak of. You would have to be extremely lucky not to have experienced at least some of SWP's problems here, and extremely unusual to have a normal gaming desktop system [EDIT: i.e. a few years old with a couple of upgrades you did by buying new bits from bestbuy/pcworld/whoever - like graphics card, perhaps wireless mouse, etc] and not experienced a mostly similar set of problems (I say from long and bitter experience, having run debian alone on various laptops and many desktops as well as the servers).

Of course i have faced problems like those, what i'm saying is that i did'n found that HARD to solve them, most of times googling, anyway, my experience is limited to 2 years and only one pc. i have found allways the same problems (network adapter, graphic card, etc...). But i don't have any cutting edge hardware, this box is 4 years old, so no sata, only one cpu...

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Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #72 - Posted 2006-04-23 04:34:45 »

For example the GUI is noticably slower than Windows, which in turn is noteably slower than Mac - some of that is percieved speed vs. actual speed.  For example on the Mac the UI is double buffered so you NEVER see a window leave "trails" behind while the UIs of various "uncovered" programs try to catch up with the repaints - it's a simple thing that may ultimately reduce performance in some ways, but it greatly improves the "quality" of the user experience, giving applications a much more polished look and feel.

Bug in your video card driver (on windows, and on linux) - windows hasnt done that for years if your driver was good enough, ditto linux.

With decent drivers, and having now used approx 12 different macs (all running 10.2 then 10.3 then 10.4, mixture of G4's, G5's, ibooks, powerbooks and mac minis) I have to say that the windowing system is noticeably less snappy than windows XP in one way, and better in another.

I have to respectfully disagree with this assessment.  The difference is quite clearly in the Mac's favour, and while I haven't used as many Macs as you have, I have used a few and I've used tons of Windows systems (that generally have faster processors and graphics cards).  The Macs at the very least *feel* much faster, and that seems to be the general consensus of anyone I've known that has tried both... Well, except for you Smiley

It's not related to the video driver at all.  It's a simple feature of the Windows and Linux windowing systems not being double buffered.  When something underneath is revealed the application is asked to repaint it and you see the results of the fact that the foreground object has been drawn in its new location before the revealed area is refreshed.  I have seen this on every Windows system I've ever used, with every graphics card (various nVidia cards), with every driver version.  Even the old Amiga systems *appeared* to be much faster with the windowing system because usually the windows were double buffered (and the hardware was better equipped for blitting for various reasons)

Part if the responsiveness of the Mac may also be that the virtual memory system appears to work so much better than that of Windows.

Quote
It's considerably worse at just general using apps - redraw times suck and scrolling within apps is consistently noticeably slower. Its better in that its fast switching is often fast *even if the foreground app has crashed* (although there are still times when its fast switching takes tens of seconds, it does this less readily than windows does).

I agree that scrolling IS slower on the Mac. I think that is partially due to the Mac making sure that the newly revealed area of a scroll pane is fully painted before it ever becomes visible to the user.  Dragging windows around on the Mac certainly feels MUCH faster to me. I'm comparing with various PC's but only have experience with a couple Macs.  Perhaps it is related to OS X using Open GL for it's Quartz rendering system.

Redraw times may be longer overall - in some cases, but because the display is never redrawn in the sorry looking state of Windows or Linux.. where you can see big grey rectangles (or trails of a moved forground object),  it is more appealing visually and doesn't feel slow.  When you have to sit and watch applications catch-up with their repaints on Windows and Linux it just makes them appear slow.

My experience with the fast user switching and even sleep/wake times agrees with yours... the Mac is generally much snappier than Windows in those areas.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #73 - Posted 2006-04-23 22:24:58 »

After the latest updates to Unbuntu "Drapper Drake" (beta)  the mouse pointer now spontaneously places itself in the lower left area of the screen, regardless of what I might be doing.  I've had to switch back to Windows to type this as the machine is nearly impossible to use when every couple seconds the mouse spazzes out of control.

The latest updates included a uni-processor kernel.. but the SMP kernel package had no updates and remains not functional.

Offline Jeff

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Got any cats?


« Reply #74 - Posted 2006-04-24 04:43:44 »

Interesting... given all the evidence that points to Linux suckage you now attack me instead of admitting the problems with Linux.  It's a common tactic of debaters that see they are losing.  Attack the person, not the issue.
I'm not attacking you, i'm sorry if it sounded so. I've never found so dificult to set up a linux box, and how you are giving that linux is crap just because you have to do some things for yourself, even in ubuntu, the most polished and user-friendly out of the box distro i've tried. I'm just pointing that if you want it easy, stick to win (if mac is not an option,  of course) .


If you've never found it so hard, you haven't really dont much installing to speak of. You would have to be extremely lucky not to have experienced at least some of SWP's problems here, and extremely unusual to have a normal gaming desktop system

I havent had any problemsto speak of  with SUSE on high-end desktoi psystems.  'course I walways use NVidia who have decent Linux support.

if you buy an ATI card then you are likely to have all kinds of linux problems, but thats ATI's fault fot not supporting lInux adaquately.  My advice is stick to NVidia if yo uwant to run 3D accelerated Linux

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Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #75 - Posted 2006-04-24 12:31:36 »

I don't want to attack anybody here.
I don't want to say Linux is the best alternative when it isn't. For _some_ uses Mac or Windows may be better. Saying "Linux pwns your OS" is just stupid.
I don't want to enter into debates on underlying technologies and if your desktop is double-buffered or not. I care if my 3D app is, but not my desktop.
I don't wanna know if Aptitude is well-designed or not.

What I know is :
  • I NEVER had any issues installing Ubuntu on any computer, and this since the Warthy release
  • Ubuntu has the best wiki I ever seen. See by yourself : http://wiki.ubuntu.com

And swpalmer, if you want a fair overview of what Ubuntu is, please wait June and do a clean install (not an update) of the FINAL version. The Ubuntu team works like that :
- They do a more or less experimental version (=Breezy)
- Then they polish it and make it enterprise-quality (=Dapper)
- Then they do another experimental, cutting-edge version (=Edgy)
- And so on..

And it's probably better to tell the team your problems (and to post to an Ubuntu forum to be helped) so they can fix that instead of just saying to the others : please don't use that you will surely have problem.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #76 - Posted 2006-04-24 18:11:43 »

Searching the Ubuntu wiki has been useless.  I'm not sure what I should expect to find there, but searching for "SMP" yields zero hits for example.

I will try the Ubuntu forums if I find the time.

Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #77 - Posted 2006-04-24 18:54:44 »

I will try the Ubuntu forums if I find the time.
This is just the best way to solve your problem if it doesn't appear on the wiki.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #78 - Posted 2006-04-25 10:43:47 »

For example the GUI is noticably slower than Windows, which in turn is noteably slower than Mac - some of that is percieved speed vs. actual speed.  For example on the Mac the UI is double buffered so you NEVER

Bug in your video card driver (on windows, and on linux) - windows hasnt done that for years if your driver was good enough, ditto linux.

It's not related to the video driver at all.  It's a simple feature of the Windows and Linux windowing systems not being double buffered.  When something underneath is revealed the application is asked to repaint it and you see the results of the fact that the foreground object has been drawn in its new location before the revealed area is refreshed.  I have seen this on every Windows system I've ever used, with every graphics card (various nVidia cards), with every driver version.  Even the old Amiga systems *appeared* to be much faster with the windowing system because usually the windows were double buffered (and the hardware was better equipped for blitting for various reasons)

Try removing your graphics driver and rebooting, and see how windows look then Smiley.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #79 - Posted 2006-04-25 13:14:32 »

Right, and try removing your nvidia-glx or fglrx 3D accelerated driver under linux and reboot : the system still looks right, thanks to the open-source drivers.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #80 - Posted 2006-04-25 13:30:09 »

And in fact, I changed my mind about the optimal linux version for Java. I'd recommend Freespire, when it comes out.
http://www.freespire.org/

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #81 - Posted 2006-04-25 21:40:36 »

A few reboots later and my mouse has spontaneously fixed itself under Ubuntu - yay!

I also found instructions for installing Java 6 betas, and although it's painfully silly to have to manually edit three scripts to do what is simple a double-click, they worked.

I'm getting used to it.   And I suppose I can see the appeal to newbies that like to tinker around with stuff to see how it works, but I just don't care about all the details that Linux makes me care about.    I'm going to keep using it for now though... the painful part is mostly over... I would just  like to get the SMP kernel working.

Btw..Freespire looks good on paper... but I would avoid recommending it as the optimal version for linux  before you actually see it in action.   I'll keep my fingers crossed though, because it does look like they are addressing many of the issues that I have with other distributions.

Offline darkprophet

Senior Member




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #82 - Posted 2006-04-25 21:46:57 »

downloaded OpenSUSE 10.1 today (network install), it automagically downloaded the x86_64 arch for everything and downloaded the SMP kernel too with the correct kernel-sources (need them for the nvidia driver)...

All went smoothly and after about 20 minutes of reading up on Xgl and Compiz, i have a vista looking GNOME desktop Smiley

DP

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Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #83 - Posted 2006-04-26 13:58:33 »

Btw..Freespire looks good on paper... but I would avoid recommending it as the optimal version for linux  before you actually see it in action.   I'll keep my fingers crossed though, because it does look like they are addressing many of the issues that I have with other distributions.
I agree.

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« Reply #84 - Posted 2006-04-26 15:30:08 »

freespire is pretty useless really without its click and run service (which you have to pay for), CNR is great if you have it, but if not your better of with just plain debian cos thats what freespire is really a mod of.
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #85 - Posted 2006-04-26 16:14:31 »

Not exactly. Because if Freespire has a nifty graphical installer, nvidia and ati proprietary drivers & sun jre/jdk & flash & acroread ON CD, then freespire's still the best choice.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline darkprophet

Senior Member




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #86 - Posted 2006-04-26 16:48:34 »

Takes about 2 seconds to download those? I doubt anyone's mental stability if they choose a distribution because they get a "graphical installer" that your only going to see a couple of times....

PS. Flash *doesn't* work on x86_64...so that makes flash useless for the newer machines...

DP

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

Blog | Volatile-Engine
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #87 - Posted 2006-04-27 11:53:00 »

Takes about 2 seconds to download those? I doubt anyone's mental stability if they choose a distribution because they get a "graphical installer" that your only going to see a couple of times....
Yeah, but you know how users are stupid those days ^^

PS. Flash *doesn't* work on x86_64...so that makes flash useless for the newer machines...
Never said Flash was of any use.. Instead I always said it was a pain in the ass (non-SEF, non-W3C, non-OSS...)

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« Reply #88 - Posted 2006-04-27 12:05:15 »

Another note about flash on linux is that its still stuck on Flash 7 (no flash 8 for linux was released), so a lot of the Flash 8 ones don't work properly with it, however good news is that Flash 9 (which was 8.5 before) will be launch simultaneously for Windows and Linux.
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #89 - Posted 2006-04-28 13:08:24 »

Another note about flash on linux is that its still stuck on Flash 7 (no flash 8 for linux was released), so a lot of the Flash 8 ones don't work properly with it, however good news is that Flash 9 (which was 8.5 before) will be launch simultaneously for Windows and Linux.
Yeah, it's because they had to do the 64-bit version so they decided to skip Flash 8 for linux, and to release flash 9 for Windows & Linux both for 32-bit and 64-bit architectures.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
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