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  Yet some more GDC Goodness!  (Read 11609 times)
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Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #30 - Posted 2006-03-17 23:09:58 »

Methinks you'll find that the animation in TT is as good as any in the industry today... look closely! All the cleverer for the polygon budget they had.

Cas Smiley

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #31 - Posted 2006-03-17 23:19:43 »

That means they'll look at the tech demo and go meh at the graphics (its pretty, but its not ground breaking - its not meant to be). Like any body attending a conference they'll find out what the technology is being advertised, realise its server side and ask more. To say that they'd just see graphics, not up to Quake 4 (or whatever), not interested would make them very shallow indeed. I'd think they'd start asking some pretty pertinent questions about Dark Star which I hope there are good answers for.

Two issues here:
 1. A large number of important people at GDC either know little about tech or simply don't bother to look under the hood. The former are non-programmers, the latter are ex programmers who know that these days its so easy to get good artists that if you have crap art that says bad things about your ability to put a team together, and both groups use it (graphical quality) as a pre-filter for any conversation they have.

I'm not saying thats fair, just that I know a lot do that. To me it seems more of a justification after the fact Smiley.

 2. Image, in a marketing sense, is not shaped by the few out of 10,000 who stop to ask questions. Its shaped by the many who glance in on their way past. It's also shaped by the journalists, who generally are not in a wise enough position to ask questions.

EDIT: that was too brief to be clear; what I mean is that image is shaped by the masses and the opinion-formers. The decent, smart games programmer is neither. To be honest, if they were, then the whole java game dev situation wouldn't be such a problem Smiley.

i.e. I wasn't referring to "professional games programmers" in my previous post. GDC is only something like max of 1/3 programmers by attendance, IIRC. You also have swathes of marketing, business dev, production, film companies, artists, etc.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #32 - Posted 2006-03-18 12:51:49 »

Adam is, once again, precisely on target. If you want to play with the big boys you have to at least appear serious.

Cas Smiley

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #33 - Posted 2006-03-18 21:42:17 »

Well the demos don't exactly compare to this which is a shame:

http://www.waiting4oblivion.com/images/screenshots/obliv32B.jpg

Neither this screenshot represents the state of the art since this game doesn't use the most expensive algorithms for shadows and hdr.

It wouldn't be difficult to make a java3d game that uses dynamic soft shadows, hdr, pixel and vertex shaders in everything with very high-poly models right? Then just throw a game with minimal gameplay with a 5Ghz, 100Gb ram with a dual radeon x9000 super uber pc system and see how interested people will come like flies.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #34 - Posted 2006-03-18 23:18:17 »

Well the demos don't exactly compare to this which is a shame:

http://www.waiting4oblivion.com/images/screenshots/obliv32B.jpg

The other shame is that this game will not be available for the Mac (at least not for a while), and I doubt it will run on Linux. But the point is clear... Java needs a showy title like this before it will get the sort of attention it needs.

Offline f.l.x

Senior Member


Projects: 3


there is no place like 127.0.0.1


« Reply #35 - Posted 2006-03-19 02:29:15 »

Well the demos don't exactly compare to this which is a shame:

http://www.waiting4oblivion.com/images/screenshots/obliv32B.jpg

Neither this screenshot represents the state of the art since this game doesn't use the most expensive algorithms for shadows and hdr.

It wouldn't be difficult to make a java3d game that uses dynamic soft shadows, hdr, pixel and vertex shaders in everything with very high-poly models right? Then just throw a game with minimal gameplay with a 5Ghz, 100Gb ram with a dual radeon x9000 super uber pc system and see how interested people will come like flies.


oh, im drooling with those oblivion previews as i drooled with morrowind's ones, but that's the point, i'll have to uprgrade my system in order to play it at "medium" quality

Litterarum radices amaras, fructus dulces
http://flx.proyectoanonimo.com
figth spam!
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #36 - Posted 2006-03-19 15:42:38 »

oh, im drooling with those oblivion previews as i drooled with morrowind's ones, but that's the point, i'll have to uprgrade my system in order to play it at "medium" quality

Java is suposed to compete with other languages in any market and not just the medium market?

This stuff is good but i think we need a Java Quake 4 to show people that Java games can sell anywhere.

Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 70
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #37 - Posted 2006-03-19 17:53:35 »

Java is suposed to compete with other languages in any market and not just the medium market?

This stuff is good but i think we need a Java Quake 4 to show people that Java games can sell anywhere.

yeh but i suspect by the time quake 4 gets ported to java (if ever) quake 6, doom 5 will already be out, playing catchup always won't work, we need to really beat the competition.
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #38 - Posted 2006-03-19 18:43:20 »

I wasn't talking about a port but a game that uses the latest cg tech comparable to any other state of the art game. This limits gameplay like hell because almost all the game cycles are going to be used to render dynamic soft shadows and crap like that but im afraid this is what needs to be done to convince some influent people.
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

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Medals: 70
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #39 - Posted 2006-03-19 18:48:50 »

or they could just use the E3 trick that a lot of game dev's used at the last E3, just show some pre-rendered fmv and claim its real time using java  Grin, if it really is about graphics.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Tzan

Junior Member





« Reply #40 - Posted 2006-03-19 22:34:25 »

I was watching Dr Who on friday and Turbine had a TV ad!   A TV ad! for D&Donline
It was pre-rendered cinimatic stuff, not in game. I think they could have made a better ad. The game graphics arent bad.
Offline Funkapotamus

Junior Member




wo shuo han yu


« Reply #41 - Posted 2006-03-20 19:43:25 »

Java is suposed to compete with other languages in any market and not just the medium market?
This stuff is good but i think we need a Java Quake 4 to show people that Java games can sell anywhere.

The problem is that there are too many people making engines and too little people making games.  Everyone is reinventing the wheel.  Unfortunatly, the people capable of developing such a AAA are too segregated- busy with their own endeavors.  This isn't a Java specific problem, rather, a problem which exists with the development community as a whole.  We'd see a lot more games in the indie scene if people stopped trying to make engines.  Java games in particular would flourish under this mentality, simply because of quicker development cycles. 

I should be one to talk though... I am guilty of this offense.  Anyway, gotta go!  I've got to get back to work on my engine...    Wink
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #42 - Posted 2006-03-20 22:10:38 »

Hey, I keep saying give me a million bucks and I'll have a AAA title up in no time, but no-one seems to want to lend me the cash Wink

Cas Smiley

Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #43 - Posted 2006-03-20 22:42:41 »

I want to give you the cash, but people insist on not giving me enough money to have that much lying about spare.

There is no justice in the world...
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #44 - Posted 2006-03-20 23:04:15 »

Just hire a couple of unemployed writers and cg artists. They will do anything for a couple of bucks. Then sell a game with 10 maps like quake 3 and there you have an instant block buster title.
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 70
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #45 - Posted 2006-03-20 23:53:31 »

Just hire a couple of unemployed writers and cg artists. They will do anything for a couple of bucks. Then sell a game with 10 maps like quake 3 and there you have an instant block buster title.


wow where can i find these cg artists that only charge a 'couple of bucks'?  Wink
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #46 - Posted 2006-03-21 01:17:32 »

Theres plenty of them believe me. Look for moding sites for the most popular games HL2 or on the CG society sites.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #47 - Posted 2006-03-21 03:52:17 »

Ah sadly my worldly wise experience tells me that this would be unlikely to result in a AAA title...

Cas Smiley

Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #48 - Posted 2006-03-21 13:32:45 »

The kind of title that has you checking into AA, perhaps?
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #49 - Posted 2006-03-21 17:12:07 »

Ah sadly my worldly wise experience tells me that this would be unlikely to result in a AAA title...

Cas Smiley

There is a risk in everything. Even with 1 million bucks you can't be sure the results will be an instant AAA title.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #50 - Posted 2006-03-21 19:10:42 »

Methinks you'll find that AAA refers to the marketing budget and project costs, not the use of fancy technology.

Cas Smiley

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #51 - Posted 2006-03-22 01:55:23 »

Fancy technology is good for demos and to sell technology. Don't overlook the power of a small demo with almost zero gameplay filled with all the latest cg tricks. As for AAA my point is not what AAA stands for but that you can beat any big budget game with a low budget game as long as your game has enough quality.
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 70
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #52 - Posted 2006-03-22 03:31:04 »

one of the factors that i think the low budget suffers from as opposed to an AAA title is exposure and getting it to peoples attention that it actually exists, just take an example of say 'Prince of Persia: Two Thrones', there were posters all over the trains, buses, tv ads, interactive flash ad's on popular sites, etc. it was almost impossible to miss that the game existed. Games with small budgets just can't do that!
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #53 - Posted 2006-03-22 04:03:43 »

just take an example of say 'Prince of Persia: Two Thrones',

Never heard of it.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 284
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #54 - Posted 2006-03-22 11:41:24 »

After several years in the gaming industry fringes, looking, watching, learning, listening and experimenting, I've discovered that there's actually only one thing that sells games, and that's fun.

Cas Smiley

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #55 - Posted 2006-03-22 12:49:20 »

Of course fun, quality, etc... A big studio with a big budget has a huge advantage over a small studio but they also have severe weaknesses small studios can take advantage from.

A big studio can hire hundreds of people for months to create gigabytes of content. They can hire expensive cg studios to create very good movies. They can pay well known writers and composers. Then they can advertise with tons of publicity.

Their weakness is the process they use to create games. See Oblivion for example, theres one guy who works in the main quest who is in a room for himslef and almost never talks with the other guys except the project lead and other writers. The artists and game designers problably never saw the guy which made the songs. The game is assembled like a production line where parts have normalized and boring connections to each other.

Now a small team of people who know each other well and talk to each other daily can create a good game that is well connected and fun. The problem is that they can't compete with the raw power of big studios to create game content. But they can create a coesive and solid game better than a big studio with their big studio organization problems.

Im not an artist myself but there were times when i needed good quality textures, models and musics so i had to do them myself. I found that some tricks can help. We can use photorealistic images (see mayang site for exampel) and make them tile after some color correction. Allways works good and doesn't require any  a art degree. Same with musics and models. Use realistic models and mix music tracks from  other games with a little twist. I may even make a small tutorial sometime to show how this is realy easy for anyone. Even people wihtout any art knowledge.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #56 - Posted 2006-03-23 18:03:05 »

Got back from San Jose last night. I spent a few days at EclipseCON but did manage to spend a couple of hours wandering round the Expo at GDC. I actually went to GDC with the intention of trying to get a feel for how important the conference is and where the exhibitors efforts were focused. I thought it might be useful to say what I saw:

- Cosmic Birdie looks a hell of a lot better on a nice high res screen - testiment to this was the number of people watching it and asking Shawn and his brother in arms deep and meaningful questions.

- The only people with _really_ nice looking (graphically) demos were the graphics card providers (ATI, NVidia, S3, Intel) and the graphics engine providers. The Sony camp was showing some great looking stuff but nothing so "grab you off the street" as the graphics card providers. Microsoft and Nintendo had great games (as you'd expect) but nothing graphically exciting. Mostly they just got their reps (mmm, reps) to jump out and drag people in Smiley

- Most of the technology vendors (AI.Implant for instance who have some great tech) had tech demos. They were showing what their technology was, rather trying to wow with graphics. AI.Implants demo for instance consisted of a city with simply people figures wandering around. Each person had a personaility and an objective. They went on to show how this was dynamic and physics aware. Was very impressive, and yet again drew loads of people in.

- In all honesty, most people at the Expo were basically just milling around taking a look at everything. Absolutely everything in details. The Expo isn't so big that you couldn't get a really good look round a in few hours. For me being a techy geek there was a lot to see. I imagine the talks/tutorials/BOF would be far more useful but I couldn't really believe that the GDC Expo itself was terribly important in the grand scheme of things.

- Wandering around I was really disappointed to see nothing terribly new. There seemed to be a lot of work going on in middleware - basically refactoring the stuff that people have done and repackaging as a generic article. Fine, but I'd really hoped for something innovational.

I saw a great talk at EclipseCON by Joel Spolsky essentially echoing exactly the being "Good vs Great" article posted earlier - only presented in a really "great" way. However, either its ok to only be good when you're illustrating something else thats great or by far the majority of the exhibitors were way way off the mark (which I suppose its entirely possible Smiley)

Two side notes:

- Sun Booth - putting people in lab coats doesn't make them seem brighter. Wait for a photo of ChirsM for proof Smiley

- Best saying ever from the Spolsky talk - "Proof that looks are more important is Keanu Reeves, pretty but zero acting talent and so stupid he couldn't pour piss from a boot if the instructions were printed on the heel".

Kev

Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Member




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Reply #57 - Posted 2006-03-23 18:12:32 »

- Cosmic Birdie looks a hell of a lot better on a nice high res screen - testiment to this was the number of people watching it and asking Shawn and his brother in arms deep and meaningful questions.

Was it a playable demo or the demo that was posted by ChrisM in this forum?
Jeff

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 85
Projects: 25


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #58 - Posted 2006-03-23 18:40:30 »

Playable demo, two (odd looking Sun) boxes running next to each other. People were being encouraged to have a play - as I said I was only there for a few hours but when I first got round to the booth I couldn't play because two guys in suits were busy bashing each other off the sides of the track Smiley I came back a bit later and got to play it. Not my cup of tea to be honest (I'm not a high paced race fan) but other people seemed to enjoy. Though I'm not sure how many stopped after playing it to actually talk to anyone Smiley

To me it looked a bit different to the video (could just be the recording I guess) - but the textures were more refined and you got much more of a sense of the size of the levels. I guess it was running on great hardware and at super highres of course.

Kev

Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #59 - Posted 2006-03-27 03:16:34 »

Hi again,
IMI (Chad and I) are hard back at work to get a beta out there that you guys can play with ASAP.
In fact, we may put up a fairly breakable but playable build quickly just so long time JGO-ers can in fact see it at least running.
Worst case will be a less breakable build by the end of April.

One problem we are dealing with right now is what to do about the networking since it went so well, we'd like to show that, but we'll need a host server and DarkStar.  The Sun guys are trying to set something up as well for that.

Also, for JavaOne (May 16 - 19, 2006) we will do another release as well.

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
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