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  Why C# teams try to port C++ engines to pure C# quite often(?), but Java dont?  (Read 8356 times)
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Offline whome

Junior Member




Carte Noir Java


« Reply #30 - Posted 2006-03-15 15:21:05 »

Quote
I started 'porting' irrlicht along time ago during a slow period at work.  I say 'porting' because I never intended to create a complete port; I was just bored.  I got part way through the math classes then work picked up again.
The thing that sucked about going from c++ to java was operator overloading.  Everyone wants to overload vector and matrix operations  Roll Eyes .  My personal preference is to not use operator overloading, even in c++, so it was even more of a pain.  Then those overloaded operators trickle down into the rest of the code and it becomes right squidgy.
That's what I was feeling, too much fundamental differences in C++ and Java language to make some parts of the port quite difficult. You will need to hack an engine logic heavily. Porting to C# is more transparent due to a wider similarities (structs, operator overloads, inout ref arguments,...).

Still, creating a java game engine does not mean to close eyes. Borrowing bits here and there from opensource C++/xyz language engine does pay off and speed implementation phase. I presume its perfectly valid to borrow code crosslanguage if license models match.

I wish we had these three options in Java:
* delegate instead of anonymous classes for listener pattern
* true properties, not just getXXXX/setXXX naming convention "properties"
* struct object (use this http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4820062 page to read pros+cons+feelings)
* operator overloading (see how annoying BigInteger is for business math apps)

First two of which Anders "The Delphi Man" Helsberg tried to bring Java, but was rejected.
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #31 - Posted 2006-03-15 15:38:53 »



Any benchmarks that I have seen puts the C# VM at par with or better than Sun's client VM. It's only the server VM that seems to have a clear advantage, and it isn't even installed with the standard JRE.

That's a excactly my experience, SUN's client vm very similiar in speed. Maybe the Java 5 client is a bit slower, but version 6 is definitely faster! And yes, testing was done with a real app (a 3d virtual beergarden), which I've ported from c# to Java.

Assuming th port was a smart port and not a straight port, and you did a tuning passin java, then Id agreee thats probably a reasonably fair data point.


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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #32 - Posted 2006-03-15 15:41:03 »

Quote
Um... no offense B but  I smell the smell of FUD here...

Can you actually name the "lot of Java engineers" who desigend on and/or worked on C#?
Well, I was kind of assuming (and I think it's a pretty common assumption) that all of the MSVM folk who weren't allowed to "embrace and extend" java during the court case that lasted for most of the last five years must have been doing something, especially given the timing of the relase of the MSIL interpreter.

Well given the speed and capabilities of where the MSFt folsk stopped their Java efforts, I find it difficult to justify the idea that C-sharp is a generation *after* Java.

Its fairer I think to say that they are, at the msot, at the same development level in C# as the rest of the community i in Java.

The original statement implies otherwise,. at least to my eyes.


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Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #33 - Posted 2006-03-15 16:22:47 »

I'm not sure that it is in terms of VM performance, they seem much similar. It does have some very nice syntactic sugar to it, though and I would say that it's a bit quicker to develop with, especially for client-side programs where you have to do any significant degree of UI stuff, but maybe I just know the platform a bit better where that is concerned. For web development Asp.net is easier to work than J2EE and for most work that I do J2EE would be a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but again that is an irrelevance cos Rails is going to sweep the board on that front over the next few years.
Offline thiagosc

Senior Newbie





« Reply #34 - Posted 2006-03-15 17:48:01 »

For web development Asp.net is easier to work than J2EE and for most work that I do J2EE would be a sledgehammer to crack a nut, but again that is an irrelevance cos Rails is going to sweep the board on that front over the next few years.

Surely cheap CRUD webapps are easier to do in a lot of places outside J2EE. Just take a look the number PHP sites out there, I fail to see how this is "news" and how Rails will do any better than PHP and other scripting languages.

And I used PHP before coming to Java, mostly for opensource hype, and it's an experience I'd rather forget.
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #35 - Posted 2006-03-15 18:07:13 »

I don't recall saying it was news, but if we're discussing the relative merits of C# one of them is that Asp.net is a pleasure to develop with and I haven't used any equivalent jsp solutions- they may exist, but very few ISPs offer java hosting and most of them offer windows hosting.

If you haven't used Rails though you really can't comment on it - firstly it's based on a very powerful and expressive language and secondly it does so much of the routine stuff for you automatically, all the things that you end up doing for every project are just done, right there, when you show it your database. Its nothing that couldn't have been done by anyone but it is the first time I've seen it done in one place by a basic platform.  There is a lot of Rails hype at the moment, but there genuinely is a nugget of gold at the heart of it.

I try to be broadly language-agnostic, but Ruby has really impressed me.
Offline thiagosc

Senior Newbie





« Reply #36 - Posted 2006-03-15 18:11:49 »

Still, creating a java game engine does not mean to close eyes. Borrowing bits here and there from opensource C++/xyz language engine does pay off and speed implementation phase. I presume its perfectly valid to borrow code crosslanguage if license models match.

I believe "borrow" is quite different than "porting".

I wish we had these three options in Java:
* delegate instead of anonymous classes for listener pattern
* true properties, not just getXXXX/setXXX naming convention "properties"
* struct object (use this http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4820062 page to read pros+cons+feelings)
* operator overloading (see how annoying BigInteger is for business math apps)

First two of which Anders "The Delphi Man" Helsberg tried to bring Java, but was rejected.

I'm not going to argue that those ideas are "bad" because we get addicted to such things (generics are really good), but...

I think people put WAY TOO MUCH importance and little syntactic sugar details. Such things (your specific cited things) won't make a difference in the big picture! And some could even cause more harm than good! What's the point!?

People should compare platforms in terms of needs (your needs) and the perspective the platform gives. I'd hate to see Java becoming like Perl! Ten ways to do the same thing.

PS.: Java doesn't  force you to use get/set for everything. And I have noticed that several Java programmers have the (bad) habit of creating a thousand Java Bean classes for exclusively holding data without even thinking. Maybe what we need is not a "property" keyword but a deintoxication clinic for Java Beans addicts.

An example of "how things can go bad" is when I was experimenting XMLBeans for parsing a big XML file. Ok, the tool is fine and it works, but I ended with gazillion classes with get/set !! That was nuts! The good and old DOM would do the job with far less code, writing code using DOM would be less trouble than using 1000 automatically generated classes.
Offline thiagosc

Senior Newbie





« Reply #37 - Posted 2006-03-15 18:27:21 »

I don't recall saying it was news, but if we're discussing the relative merits of C# one of them is that Asp.net is a pleasure to develop with and I haven't used any equivalent jsp solutions- they may exist, but very few ISPs offer java hosting and most of them offer windows hosting.

I don't recall saying that C# was bad. But now that you touched the subject I have to say that you were probably using the wrong tools when developed in Java. That would explain it.

Quote
If you haven't used Rails though you really can't comment on it - firstly it's based on a very powerful and expressive language and secondly it does so much of the routine stuff for you automatically, all the things that you end up doing for every project are just done, right there, when you show it your database. Its nothing that couldn't have been done by anyone but it is the first time I've seen it done in one place by a basic platform.  There is a lot of Rails hype at the moment, but there genuinely is a nugget of gold at the heart of it.

I try to be broadly language-agnostic, but Ruby has really impressed me.

Ok, you didn't say that "Ruby is designed for happiness" in your standard believer preach. Hehehe Sorry, I couldn't resist.  Smiley

I don't recall saying that Rails was bad, but cheap CRUD webapps are not new  and I showed that much of the "ease" was already performed by other languages such as PHP.

As far as I know PHP is (was?) the language of cheap CRUD webapps, the area where Rails shine, J2EE is not there. So the competitor of Rails is PHP not Java.

Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #38 - Posted 2006-03-15 23:33:46 »

I'm sure you're right, although Rails scales (which also rhymes!) and it certainly has PHP whipped on that front.
Offline zero

Junior Member





« Reply #39 - Posted 2006-03-16 17:27:08 »

And, at risk of sounding like an ignorant Java basher, I have one C# app so far on my machine which is Sony's PSP media manager and I actually read a reviewer that said "... It's GUI makes Java look speedy... "

Maybe they reviewer wrote about the applet on yourpsp.com/, which downloads psp stuff (videos, pirctures,..) directly on your psp.

Actually, this applet is pretty cool, because it establishes a usb connection, which isn't easy in Java...

Assuming th port was a smart port and not a straight port, and you did a tuning passin java, then Id agreee thats probably a reasonably fair data point.

Well, it was not a straight port. IMHO, java and C# aren't that similiar than most argue. But what really surprised me is was not that the java server vm was faster, but it also seems to have a higher floating point precision, which I noticed while playing with the pathfinder parameters... any ideas why the server vm is more accurate?   Roll Eyes
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