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  Does anyone know Sony's viewpoint on Java SE Gaming? And ...  (Read 8623 times)
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Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Member




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Posted 2006-02-22 05:50:04 »

... do you feel that inviting a Sony official to join this forum would help?  Just curious.

Jeff

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline kylix999

Junior Member





« Reply #1 - Posted 2006-02-22 07:09:15 »


sony today is intrested only in lanching ps3 in spring (but probably it will be in summer), i do not think that they will be any time intrested java gaming (except cell phones)
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #2 - Posted 2006-02-22 07:19:44 »

I would say that Sony is totally neutral.

The want developers to write games.  They really don't care what tools they use.  if *enough* developers pestered them for a Java VM, or one game they **rally** wanted bad was already in Java, then they'd care.

Til then there is nothing in it for them one way or the other,

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #3 - Posted 2006-02-22 12:29:34 »

I'd love to be able to talk to a Sony engineer in here about a few things... in particular Sony should be interested in what XBox is doing for indie developers (see Hamsterball and Mutant Storm for two massive success stories on XBox). I cannot develop for XBox as there's no OpenGL on it but the PS3 has potential for a bit of LWJGL action... just needs a proper fast VM to open the doors to us.

Cas Smiley

Offline kylix999

Junior Member





« Reply #4 - Posted 2006-02-22 12:34:31 »


princec are there any plans to create jvm for ps3 and xbox, for example does sun plan to develop it with those companys, becouse those consoles are able to connect with net etc so they should have some kind of browser, also they have hdd so some jvm plugin probably could be stored there...
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #5 - Posted 2006-02-22 13:29:22 »

Don't ask me, I know nothing!

Cas Smiley

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #6 - Posted 2006-02-22 14:42:56 »

I know it's a bit unrelated but concerning Java on consoles, did you know that the Phantom console is supposed to be available soon according to their website? The good news about that is that it's supposed to ship with a Windows JVM if I'm not wrong (don't remember where I saw that info).

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #7 - Posted 2006-02-22 14:46:45 »

The Phantom console is something of a joke.

Cas Smiley

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #8 - Posted 2006-02-22 15:00:08 »

Are you absolutly sure about that? Why is there still a website of that. And they had a booth at E3 2004.

Offline kylix999

Junior Member





« Reply #9 - Posted 2006-02-22 15:01:31 »

phantom right, i do not think that even that company think that they will be able to lanch that console, but well it is a pc that you can connect to tv (it has windows xp system) sp maybe someone will buy it . I was thinking about jvm for true consoles like ps3 and xbox 360 becouse they will be in future the most popular and will be able to handle jvm (enough memory good gpu etc) and heard that some people has create their own jvm implementation for ps2, it was working but ps2 has only 30 mb of memory so it was only good for testing, anyway is sun intrested in consloes?
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Member




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Reply #10 - Posted 2006-02-22 15:13:52 »

anyway is sun intrested in consloes?

Apparently not.  But I imagine that it would be a legal battle between Sony and Sun.  Sony wants developers to use their middleware for game development.  I doubt that Sony would allow a PS3 game to be developed using Java SE, JOAL and eitherJOGL, LWJGL, or Java3D and other Java technologies.  How would the two companies merge together and benefit from this? 

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline kylix999

Junior Member





« Reply #11 - Posted 2006-02-22 15:25:56 »


sun has created its own games sever technology so they are intrested in game industry as general i think, and jogl , joal etc i read somewhere that they were created at start as a project to enable java for playstation, so interfaces to handle graphics input etc were required, but something has happen and that cooperation has ended, jogl went to jsr-231 implemetation . How they could benefit ? Well they benefit all the time Smiley but only in cell phone gaming, i think that the problem is that java game market as standalone applications for pcs is not strong, so they will not make money on it (like in cell phones) , we will not make money either Cry 
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #12 - Posted 2006-02-22 15:32:08 »

Are you absolutly sure about that? Why is there still a website of that.

I still have a website and I haven't produced anything of value in years Wink

Offline TheAnalogKid

JGO Coder


Projects: 2



« Reply #13 - Posted 2006-02-22 15:34:15 »

OK  Smiley But still how do you explain spending a lot of money for a bootth at E3 and being not serious about the project?

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #14 - Posted 2006-02-22 15:43:04 »

They propably started out serious... but then were unable to pull it off.

Or if they are crooks, maybe they just wanted to generate interests to get some investors to give them some money??

Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Member




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Reply #15 - Posted 2006-02-22 15:46:33 »

Or if they are crooks, maybe they just wanted to generate interests to get some investors to give them some money??

Maybe the Feds should look into this? j/k  Grin

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Member




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Reply #16 - Posted 2006-02-22 15:49:30 »


sun has created its own games sever technology so they are intrested in game industry as general i think, and jogl , joal etc i read somewhere that they were created at start as a project to enable java for playstation, so interfaces to handle graphics input etc were required, but something has happen and that cooperation has ended, jogl went to jsr-231 implemetation . How they could benefit ? Well they benefit all the time Smiley but only in cell phone gaming, i think that the problem is that java game market as standalone applications for pcs is not strong, so they will not make money on it (like in cell phones) , we will not make money either Cry 

I agree with what you're saying ... for cell phone gaming.  Gaming consoles?

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #17 - Posted 2006-02-22 17:23:21 »

OK  Smiley But still how do you explain spending a lot of money for a bootth at E3 and being not serious about the project?

that's how you get more money. Standard con-job Smiley.

And ... I believe the feds have already been tipped-off to look at them before  (although I might be thinking of a different games console company which had similar rumours about its future - there have been several now Smiley)

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #18 - Posted 2006-02-22 17:37:50 »

About Phantom:
http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NTEy
(Look at the date)

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #19 - Posted 2006-02-22 18:21:13 »

There was quite a long discussion on JGO last year when HardOCP's investigation came to light. It basically looks like Infineon is at best pie in the sky and at worst a proper fraud. Caveat lector - do your own research though, can't believe everything you read on teh intarweb.

Cas Smiley

Offline ryanm

Senior Member


Projects: 1
Exp: 15 years


Used to be bleb


« Reply #20 - Posted 2006-02-22 21:15:32 »

Looks like it's not going to appear any time soon...

I like the way Penny Arcade says it.
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #21 - Posted 2006-02-23 00:27:34 »

Console VMs come down tothis....

Some fo us at Sun think it would be a veru good thing for Java.  SOme of us ven believe their are workable business models for Sun to make revenue out of it.

BUT they arent the business models Sun is used to, so getting management to understand them is hard.  Some of us in Sun take a run at it every so often but we also have to chose our battles.  Project Darkstar, being server technologies, is something that is muche asier to make Sun understand (and even that took years of effort fromChris and myself.)

There really is no compelling business reason for Sony to care.  I dont thin kthey'd stop us, but they dont have a reason to pay us or help us either.

As I say, one *killer* Java game that was a PS3 must-have would chnage the world.

Til then, you guys who are writing successful and noticed games are helping, even if they arent the killer title to push Sony over the edge. 

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Member




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Reply #22 - Posted 2006-02-23 01:10:37 »

Some fo us at Sun think it would be a veru good thing for Java.  SOme of us ven believe their are workable business models for Sun to make revenue out of it.

Can you comment on  one of these proposed models?  I'm curious to know.

Quote
BUT they arent the business models Sun is used to, so getting management to understand them is hard.  Some of us in Sun take a run at it every so often but we also have to chose our battles.  Project Darkstar, being server technologies, is something that is muche asier to make Sun understand (and even that took years of effort fromChris and myself.)

I'm in a similiar situation on my job.  Convincing management to try something new?  Winning the lottery has better odds.  Grin

Quote
As I say, one *killer* Java game that was a PS3 must-have would chnage the world.

Is there a java game engine that can produce a AAA game at the level of engines like Renderware or Unreal Technology?  It would take that kind of game to get Sony's attention.  This isn't a put down, I would just like to know.

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline kylix999

Junior Member





« Reply #23 - Posted 2006-02-23 06:56:04 »


there are two market-places today: business market-place (servers, programs like office, everything that companys like sun or microsoft can provide other companies ) and second : game-market-place. Both are strong and both make huge revenus, but sun is really intrested in one of them- business (from that what said Jeff management is intrested only to those projects which are sure to earn something on it). Game servers are finally step forward to good direction, but i think that  jvm for consoles is that what sun can realy benefit, why? Becouse it is inwestment in future of modern platforms which every year gets more popular, consoles gaming are getting stronger every year , it is huge market (sony plans to sell 100 milions of ps3). Well it is my opinion but i think that pc gaming every year will get smaller, true money are today in consoles market.
Sun with success has promote java technology for cellphones but sun has very lucky situation in the first years of mobile cell phones. phones VENDORS demended technology for launching programs on diffrent configurations of their phones so they have inconporated java . Generaly sun sold licenses and made standard jvm how it could jvm for phones made and it is everything. Today sun control only jsr program and thets all. I mean that other companies has made lots of job for sun , phone vendors promoted java etc on their own. TODAY the situation is reversed sun must make FIRST STEP to gaming market and not wait like in early 90's that someone will implement java technology (if netscape would not inconporated their java tech in 1995 today probably NO ONE heard about java ). So sun first time must make step on their own not wait that sony will make their jvm ...   I like sun and i have nothing against that company but it should at least try to make another step forward...
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #24 - Posted 2006-02-23 07:57:32 »

SUn traditioanlly is a business to business company.

Sun gets the cell phone market because there is someonesun undrstands who is willing to pay a lot of money for a Java license (the phone makers) anda single monsterous customer to sell the benefits of Java to (the carriers who select the phones to be sold to their customers.)

COnsoles are different.  Sony is perfectly happy with the etchnologies it has and has no reason to spend money on a console-wide Java license,

A model that *might* work is to license it as middleware to trhe game developer,  (You want to release a Java game on PS3? Sure, itll cost you a quarter per package sold.)  That model actually has the *potential* to make a lot mroe moneyh then what we make on handsets.  On handsets were just getting paid per box, but this way we get pauid per peice of software sold ON each of those boxes.

But it would take vision and bravery for Sun to go after.  Its not like anything they have ever done before.  And anyone who works ina big company Im sure has heard the "thats not our 'core competance'" refrain....

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline pron

Junior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #25 - Posted 2006-02-23 14:30:15 »

Well, I'm new here, but here's my take on the subject.
There are currently three major game platforms: PC, PS and XBOX. Two of them are controlled by one company - the big bad giant from Redmond. Fortunately, PS is still a more successful platform than XBOX, and will probably remain so for the next couple of years. However, if at some point the tide will turn slightly in favor of the XBOX, developers will have this to consider: They will most probably be able to use the same code for PC and XBOX, and use the same tools Microsoft will develop for them. In addition, it is more likely than not that Microsoft will start pushing using C# for game development for both Windows and XBOX, and they will make it easy to use for game development and they will make it work. In fact this could be one factor to push game developers to Microsoft's arms.
Now once that happens (and it will happen) C# will become a standard development language for games, perhaps even THE standard. Since .NET is also used for enterprise applications and now even for mobile phones, C# might become the language of choice for teaching in schools. Once that happens (and it will happen), Java will be in serious trouble.
Therefore, business model or not, Java MUST be on the PlayStation even as a defensive strategy, because if a language is to become the leading language it must be everywhere. This is what Microsoft does. It knows that even if it's technology is not in the lead everywhere it must at least BE there or be gone.
This is what Sun must consider. If you can do everything with .NET but only some things with Java, young programmers will only learn .NET. And as much as we all like Java, we must admit that .NET is not that much different. These are two quite similar competing technologies. So if we want Java to thrive, it must have a presence EVERYWHERE and particularly in the game console market which is both huge and sexy.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #26 - Posted 2006-02-23 14:43:07 »

You forgot MacOS, which for some of us, is a major platform too.

Cas Smiley

Offline pron

Junior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #27 - Posted 2006-02-23 15:28:49 »

I think my point remains.

Back in the early nineties, project managers in the defense industries were faced with a choice between two languages: C++ and Ada. The American DoD bet on Ada and was followed by many defense contractors world wide. Well, they bet wrong. And not because C++ is any better than Ada. They chose Ada because it was a safer, more readable and better organized language. They believed it allowed better collaboration. They were right on all counts but they still bet wrong. Why? because C++ became ubiquitous. So by the end of the nineties, it became more and more difficult to find Ada programmers or nifty Ada development tools.

So, if I were an IT officer for a big firm who bets his chips on Java, I would be very much concerned if I saw that Sun was abandoning the gaming industry, because I realize the importance of that industry and its attraction to programmers. Now, you can say that this site proves that Sun is paying attention to Java games, but in the current market conditions, abandoning the game consoles means abandoning serious games altogether.

So if I were an IT officer who's wise enough to learn from past mistakes, I'd think twice before I bet on Java.

Because, you see, when you find yourself in direct competition with Microsoft you have to keep running just to stay in one place. Sad, maybe. Unnerving, certainly, but that's the truth.

So I hope Sun finds the right business model pretty soon, or Java will start losing ground.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 339
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #28 - Posted 2006-02-23 16:27:23 »

The difference is that Java itself already has gained so much momentum in the business space it's basically unstoppable in that area. Gaming is just a different area which Sun may or may not be bothered with competing in. Our purpose here is to convince them to put a wee bit more effort into it Wink As for Sony and a JVM on PS3, the business case has conveniently been proved quite nicely by the success of indie developers on XBox - but in truth the story's only half Sun's issue there: they can only push it so much, Sony have to agree to implement it.

Cas Smiley

Offline pron

Junior Member


Medals: 4



« Reply #29 - Posted 2006-02-23 17:18:08 »

Unstoppable like COBOL or like FORTRAN? These two languages were very popular in their niche, but never made it out of there. Or maybe like Ada which was a general purpose language like Java but was used primarily in the defense industry?

As for Sony, they might have some interest, albeit a technical one. Programming for the PS3 is going to be very difficult because of the groundbreaking yet unfamiliar concepts used in the CELL processor. The CELL is composed of one PowerPC "driver" processor, and eight Symmetrical Processing Units (SPUs) each with its own on-chip memory. The SPU's memory is not a cache of the main memory, and data has to be written to those memories explicitely. This provides extremely high performance while completely avoiding the difficulties of cache locking. However, it's a bitch to program.
Now the JVM with its smart memory model, and the newly added escape analysis and lock elision might enable running regular Java threads on the SPUs with the JVM worrying about all the tricky details. Another point is that the SPUs make use of a different instruction set from the one used by the PowerPC "driver" CPU, and so the code that should run on the SPU must be compiled to that instruction set. The JVM, on the other hand, might choose at runtime which threads to run on the SPU and which on the main processor.

This brings me to mention the third, and very important player, in the PlayStation JVM issue, and that's IBM. IBM developed the CELL, and they are going to use it for their servers. IBM endorses Java and has tremendous expertise in JVM development (In my experience their J9 JVM is about twice as fast as HotSpot, and most of the papers on JVM technology are written by IBM researchers). So IBM will probably develop a JVM for CELL, the question is only how soon. If Sun and/or Sony want to collaborate, all they have to do is adjust the JVM which IBM will develop to whatever OS the PlayStation is using.
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