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  Java versus C++  (Read 8747 times)
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Offline uj

Junior Member





« Posted 2006-02-20 23:15:41 »

Before is even start I would like a commitment from the moderators.

1. Everybody is free to express their mind. There's no judgement of arguments from the moderators.

2. Arguments are arguments of equals. Moderators have no special standing.

3. No one can be expelled for having a view. Moderators cannot stop a discussion just because it's aginst the view of Sun.

Without the above a discussion is meaningless. I would like to see a comment from the moderators.
Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #1 - Posted 2006-02-20 23:21:07 »

discussion is meaningless

This is  a forgone conclusion.
Offline uj

Junior Member





« Reply #2 - Posted 2006-02-20 23:24:58 »

This is  a forgone conclusion.

I don't think so. But if you think so you're wellcome to start.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Vorax

Senior Member


Projects: 1


System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #3 - Posted 2006-02-21 00:11:52 »

uj, I think I understand your frustration, but there really is no point arguing Java vs. C++ on these boards.  This is a Java games development board, so the only question is -  Is Java good enough for developing games, and the answer is resounding yes.  We know this from experience.  I am developing with it (see my sig) and many already have completed games that are competing along side C++ games (and other languages).  You may or may not wish to use Java to program a game, that's your porogitive, but we have and are.  We know what it's capable of and we know it's limits and we know it's good enough for what *we* are doing.  You can choose to accept that or not, the decision is yours. 

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #4 - Posted 2006-02-21 00:21:32 »

And regardless of the topic it is generally considered very bad etiquette to start a new thread on a subject after the moderators of a board lock the previous one down...

Cas Smiley

Offline uj

Junior Member





« Reply #5 - Posted 2006-02-21 01:09:39 »

uj, I think I understand your frustration, but there really is no point arguing Java vs. C++ on these boards.  This is a Java games development board, so the only question is Java good enough for developing games, and the answer is resounding yes. 

Sure, you are convinced Java is the ultimate answer to gaming, but the question was why don't everybody think so?

And, to be more general, why hasn't Java been the language of choise for advanced desktop applications?
Offline Vorax

Senior Member


Projects: 1


System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #6 - Posted 2006-02-21 01:22:22 »

uj, I think I understand your frustration, but there really is no point arguing Java vs. C++ on these boards.  This is a Java games development board, so the only question is Java good enough for developing games, and the answer is resounding yes.

Sure, you are convinced Java is the ultimate answer to gaming, but the question was why don't everybody think so?

I don't know why - perhaps it's better to ask them then us.

Quote
And, to be more general, why hasn't Java been the language of choise for advanced desktop applications?


It has been in some cases, and not in others.  Again though, It seems more logical to ask people that didn't choose Java over those who did.  The rest of us would just be theorizing anyway.

Offline uj

Junior Member





« Reply #7 - Posted 2006-02-21 01:41:46 »

I don't know why - perhaps it's better to ask them then us.

I did and the answer is that Java just didn't cut it at the time.

That's my main point really. Java hasn't been good enougth at every particular moment. Why is Eclipse using SWT for example and not Swing? I cannot be absolutely sure but a very good guess is that Swing wasn't a good enougth alternative at the moment.

Offline uj

Junior Member





« Reply #8 - Posted 2006-02-21 02:17:43 »

I'm replying to any argument. When asked I also back up every proposition I've made. When told I'm a troll and a moron I revert to irony and redicule. That's what happened in the other thread. I challange you to point out  when I attacked anyone unless being provoked before.

So to Jeff and the moderators and everybody else who say I'm wrong, prove it. Show a specific situation where I've done wrong. I'm not Magdalena. I sometimes harbour bad feelings but I never let them out unless provoked.

And finally I have a right to be wrong (or right). It's an important aspect of democracy that there isn't some god figure who decides whether an opinion is "good enougth to fit in". That's dictatorship and by closing down the other thread without reason you're very close to overstepping that thin line.

Well, I can take almost anything but when people start taking away the freedom of speech I get kind of pissed.
Offline aldacron

Senior Member


Medals: 9
Exp: 16 years


Java games rock!


« Reply #9 - Posted 2006-02-21 02:46:16 »

Sorry, but the 'freedom of speech' argument doesn't apply. This is a moderated message board and the moderators do so as they see fit. When you first register there's a little checkbox at the bottom of the forum guidelines which reads "I Agree". You had to check that to register. One of the items you agreed to is that the moderators are free to remove content at their discretion (or something to that effect). It's actually very rare for a thread to get locked here. The other thread wasn't closed because your views were opposite of everyone else's. It broke down into mudslinging, so closing it was the appropriate thing to do. But this really, really, is the wrong place to discuss Java vs. C++. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish by doing so.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 70
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #10 - Posted 2006-02-21 03:06:50 »

this is java gaming technical forum where you can get or give help for java game related problems also a great learning resource, its not a battlefield to fight old flame war topics, theres plenty of other places where you can go do that (cough* slashdot *cough), sure you can have the a good technical discussion but when it starts getting mindless and heated its time to stop. its anoying to see a nice useful information resource being littered and trashed, as for freedom of expression you should understand it comes with responsibilites.

as for the old java vs c++ debate *yawn* its pointless, leads nowhere and ends with ill feelings. So please be a good sport and just drop it.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #11 - Posted 2006-02-21 04:48:55 »

uj doesn't want to hear any arguments... given that they have already been presented and ignored in the other thread.  Ban this person so we don't have to put up with this nonsense.

Offline JavaJeff

Senior Newbie




Einsteinian geodesic...


« Reply #12 - Posted 2006-02-21 05:09:27 »

This is silly. The "language vs language" argument exists in virtually every programming forum I've ever seen. It's pointless because there is NO definative finalization of the basic tenents of the argument. Use what YOU want, for whatever reason YOU want. There are no clear cut winners or losers, every language has it's strengths and faults. It's a subject that has been beaten to death ad nauseum.  Roll Eyes

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #13 - Posted 2006-02-21 05:47:37 »

Quote
And finally I have a right to be wrong (or right). It's an important aspect of democracy that there isn't some god figure who decides whether an opinion is "good enougth to fit in". That's dictatorship and by closing down the other thread without reason you're very close to overstepping that thin line.

Well, I can take almost anything but when people start taking away the freedom of speech I get kind of pissed.

Yes, you absolutely have the right to be wrong (or right) and you are welcome to shout your position at the top of your lungs on any street corner.  In fact, you are welcome to join any publicly open forum, assuming that you abide by their T&C, and state your position.   However, you started into a discussion thread (22 posts in) saying that people were whining, stating that Java has been crappy for 10 years, then (of course) validating that perhaps that Java being slow no longer holds true and pointing out that it now has OGL support and suitable for games.  Point there is, if it's good enough now, what's your beef?  You were argumentative almost from the start.

You then went on to get the whole Java3D thing wrong WRT to letting the users down and going to JOGL.  You then asked:

Quote
C++ is a modern language. There's no special need to move to Java or C#. What would that be?

Now, I will point out that many answers were given to your question, but none seemed to satisfy you.  Fair enough.  However, your general insulting just continued.  Witness your next post in the thread:

Quote
So you just cave in without discussion? Well then you must be stupid and you posted a view worth nothing. Did you post for fame or something?

Hmmm....KevGlass didn't attack you, as far as I could see in the thread, so why call him stupid and tell him he is caving in?  If you weren't here to pick a fight, then why use those words?  And, BTW, THAT is where the downward spiral started in that discussion.  I read through each of your posts in that thread and you were more argumentative and insulting than anyone else in there and when you were presented with answers and reasons to your comments or questions, you either dismissed them or ignored them.

Now, anyone that has been frequenting these boards for some time will tell you that I am, above all else, fair.  I rarely lock threads and I believe that we have banned only 1 or 2 subscribers since these boards went live.  However, I am perfectly willing to eject someone who comes here to do nothing more than pick fights or "play devil's advocate" when no one asked them to and for no reason other than to assert themselves.  You have made some arguments in favor of C++ over Java.  I have absolutely no problem with that.  But I do have one request.

Please inform the rest of us what your credentials are.  What games have you developed?  Which ones in C++ and which ones in Java?  If no games, than what kind of apps have you developed?  Can anyone witness your work?  Give us something so that we can respect your opinion and position.  You talk about Java's lack of credibility, in your opinion, and why should anyone just trust it, now that it is suitable for game development, overnight?  Well, why should anyone trust anything you have to say just because you waltzed in here and said it?  And we don't even know your history.

So, tell us why we should listen.  I'm open.

-Chris

Offline woogley
« Reply #14 - Posted 2006-02-21 06:33:27 »

i'm pretty amazed uj started out this thread with demands towards the moderators and accusing them of only locking threads that are against Sun ... as if that's going to encourage us to debate fairly?

i would like to point out that this is probably the same 'uj' from the Sun forums (who has been banned many times and had to change his name to "u.j." and "u...j" and "u.j..." etc).. but i could be wrong

language vs language is a pointless debate anyway which has been overdiscussed many times. as it is said with many popular topics - "use the search feature!"

how can you seriously compare 2 different languages if their purpose for creation is different...? Java's purpose was to 'write once, run everywhere'

btw, it's kinda funny to hear you call C++ a "modern" language seeing as java is newer and updated more frequently.

if you're looking for a language vs language topic, why not C vs C++? Wink
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


pixels! :x


« Reply #15 - Posted 2006-02-21 10:15:44 »

Sorry, but the 'freedom of speech' argument doesn't apply. This is a moderated message board and the moderators do so as they see fit. When you first register there's a little checkbox at the bottom of the forum guidelines which reads "I Agree". You had to check that to register. One of the items you agreed to is that the moderators are free to remove content at their discretion (or something to that effect). It's actually very rare for a thread to get locked here.[...]

True. Moderation equals dicatorship. If you dont like how the mods handle it, go away.

Its as simple as that.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #16 - Posted 2006-02-21 10:17:32 »

This trolling has already been locked once.

I think its probably account ban time...

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline noblemaster

JGO Ninja


Medals: 19
Projects: 9


Age of Conquest makes your day!


« Reply #17 - Posted 2006-02-21 11:08:45 »

I am actually interested too to find out what programs/games uj developed? uj?

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 282
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #18 - Posted 2006-02-21 11:21:39 »

I don't care Smiley

If we wanted to discuss something far more useful in here we'd be talking about Java versus BlitzMax.

Cas Smiley

Offline Tzan

Junior Member





« Reply #19 - Posted 2006-02-21 16:33:47 »

http://www.criticalmiss.com/issue9/troll1.html
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #20 - Posted 2006-02-21 16:43:15 »

Hahaahaa ... love the example at that link.

Offline Tzan

Junior Member





« Reply #21 - Posted 2006-02-21 16:47:00 »

Head to page 3 there and read about: The "Skarka Clone Wars",  too funny.
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #22 - Posted 2006-02-21 17:36:30 »

I'm divided into saying uj is a poor guy and saying he must have scored 1500 at the troll game...

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline Ask_Hjorth_Larsen

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #23 - Posted 2006-02-21 17:55:47 »

Gentlemen. We have here a professional troll. A troll who will stop at nothing - let no weakness of any forum unexploited - to incite flamewars, leaving in its path a trail of blackened, burnt-out bytes. It derives pleasure from, or perhaps even feeds on the very essence of outrage expressed in reply to its utterances. Utterances, laid out like bait on a hook, waiting for the unsuspecting javagamer to be dragged into an endless discussion. (sinister music should be played while reading this message)
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #24 - Posted 2006-02-22 19:10:46 »

I don't care Smiley

If we wanted to discuss something far more useful in here we'd be talking about Java versus BlitzMax.

Cas Smiley

That's even more degrading than comparing Java to C++.  Grin
Offline uj

Junior Member





« Reply #25 - Posted 2006-02-24 22:14:36 »

So, tell us why we should listen.  I'm open.

-Chris
I really don't care who people are and I don't think anybody should. I go by the arguments only. No one is better than their last argument.

For some reason some people here seems to think they don't have to argue their sake anymore. They feel they just have to state the "facts" and that's the way it is. I'm sorry to inform you that that's just pompous behaviour. Not even a Nobel prize guarantees the holder is always right and more worthy of being listened to than any other.

So Chris, I've been accused of many things but you've failed to show any situation where I did wrong, haven't you? Why did you lock that thread? The pressure got to high. Well if it wasn't that then show an example of where I was in the wrong.
Offline uj

Junior Member





« Reply #26 - Posted 2006-02-24 22:24:30 »

uj, I think I understand your frustration, but there really is no point arguing Java vs. C++ on these boards.  This is a Java games development board, so the only question is Java good enough for developing games, and the answer is resounding yes.

Sure, you are convinced Java is the ultimate answer to gaming, but the question was why don't everybody think so?

I don't know why - perhaps it's better to ask them then us.


The issue was raised at this forum but in another thread and not by me. I gave the reasons I thought valid.

And who are "us"? Isn't the only one you can speak for yourself really? Or have you been elected spokesperson for a larger group I should know about?

Offline uj

Junior Member





« Reply #27 - Posted 2006-02-24 22:30:35 »

this is java gaming technical forum where you can get or give help for java game related problems also a great learning resource, its not a battlefield to fight old flame war topics, theres plenty of other places where you can go do that (cough* slashdot *cough), sure you can have the a good technical discussion but when it starts getting mindless and heated its time to stop. its anoying to see a nice useful information resource being littered and trashed, as for freedom of expression you should understand it comes with responsibilites.

as for the old java vs c++ debate *yawn* its pointless, leads nowhere and ends with ill feelings. So please be a good sport and just drop it.

Sure but this is a section called General Discussions.

And if you find a discussion meaningless your option is to stay out. If it's so meaningless why spend time trying to curb it?

Offline uj

Junior Member





« Reply #28 - Posted 2006-02-24 22:40:46 »

uj doesn't want to hear any arguments... given that they have already been presented and ignored in the other thread.  Ban this person so we don't have to put up with this nonsense.

I hear arguments if there are any. I don't know what you have in mind but give an example of my  "nonsense" and I'll tell you why it isn't.

Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #29 - Posted 2006-02-24 22:48:49 »

Choose whichever language you want and leave the honest people sleep. Now please sh*t up. You may want to troll on *cough* slashdot *cough* (as somebody said) but not here.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
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