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  Game Development APIs in Java - important, please feel concerned  (Read 9856 times)
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Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Posted 2006-02-20 17:36:28 »

Here's a quick report of the situation (3-characters ID between parenthesis are used to quickly reference a need) :

[size=20pt]Introduction[/size]
Java Game development is growing more every day. Even if commercial projects are made with, the majority of the coding efforts are open-sourced. This is great, but I think we should have a bit more organization.
I'm doing a summary of all the projects I've seen in my rather modest career. This is why I left out some APIs I don't know, and some I don't find really useful. However, don't mind posting constructive criticism.

[size=20pt]I. Needs[/size]

[size=14pt]1. Maths[/size]
  • (MAT) Vector and Matrix Math library
  • (COL) Collision Detection library
  • (PHY) Physical simulation library

[size=14pt]2. Graphics[/size]
  • (WIN) Window handling library
  • (GFX) Low-level graphic library working on top of (WIN)
  • (SCG) High-level scenegraph based on (GFX)
  • (FMT) Graphic files loading library
  • (FRM) Frame-based animation library
  • (SKE) Skeletal animation library
  • (GUI) Game User Interface library based on (GFX)
  • (MED) Video and audio streaming library working on top of (WIN)

[size=14pt]3. Input[/size]
  • (INP) Game devices handling library

[size=14pt]4. Network[/size]
  • (NET) Networking library

[size=14pt]5. Development[/size]
  • (IDE) Integrated Development environment
  • (DAT) Data loading/saving library
  • (TST) Test suite
  • (SCR) Script language
  • (PRO) Profiler
  • (DBG) Debugger

[size=20pt]II. Existing APIs[/size]

[size=14pt]1. Maths[/size]
  • (MAT) Vecmath (missing some functionalities) / JAMA (needs to be included in Vecmath)
https://vecmath.dev.java.net/ / http://math.nist.gov/javanumerics/jama/
[li](COL) Actually implemented in (PHY). JOODE goes in the direction of separating (COL) and (PHY)[/li]
https://joode.dev.java.net/
[li](PHY) ODEJava, soon outpaced by : JOODE[/li]
http://odejava.org/OdejavaIntro / https://joode.dev.java.net/
[size=8pt]Note : jme-physics is ODEJava-based[/size]
http://jme-physics.sourceforge.net/
[/list]

[size=14pt]2. Graphics[/size]
  • (WIN) AWT / Swing / LWJGL (partial solution)
http://java.sun.com/products/jdk/awt/ / http://java.sun.com/products/jfc/tsc/ / lwjgl.org/
[li](GFX) JOGL (Java OpenGL) / LWJGL (LightWeight Java Game Library)[/li]
https://jogl.dev.java.net/ / http://lwjgl.org/
[li](SCG) Xith3D / Java3D / jME (Java Monkey Engine) (maybe we need more unification.. or to define precisely scenegraphs differences)[/li]
http://www.xith.org/tiki-index.php / https://java3d.dev.java.net/ / http://jmonkeyengine.com/
[li](FMT) Actually included in various (SCG), should be made generic[/li]
[li](FRM) Included in (SCG), should be made generic Maybe something based on Xith's MD2 loader would fit the bill.[/li]
[li](SKE) Included in (SCG), should be made generic. A port of Cal3D would do the trick.[/li]
http://cal3d.sourceforge.net/ / http://www.shortfuze.co.uk/Wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=Models
[li](GUI) FengGUI, + various toolkits included in (SCG)[/li]
https://fenggui.dev.java.net/
[li](MED) JMF / LWJGL (secondarily)[/li]
java.sun.com/products/java-media/jmf/index.jsp / lwjgl.org/
[/list]

[size=14pt]3. Input[/size]
  • (INP) JInput (Java Input library) / LWJGL (secondarily)
https://jinput.dev.java.net/ / lwjgl.org/
[/list]

[size=14pt]4. Network[/size]
  • (NET) J2SE JDK, JNAG (Java Network API for Games), JGN, FlyingGuns
java.sun.com/j2se/ / https://jnag.dev.java.net/ / http://javagamenetworking.dev.java.net/ / www.flyingguns.com/
[/list]

[size=14pt]5. Development[/size]
  • (IDE) Eclipse, Netbeans
www.eclipse.org/ / www.netbeans.org/
[li](DAT) JDOM (excellent XML I/O library)[/li]
www.jdom.org/
[li](TST) JUnit (excellent testing library)[/li]
www.junit.org/
[li](SCR) BeanShell, Groovy, Jython[/li]
www.beanshell.org/ / groovy.codehaus.org/ / www.jython.org/
[li](PRO) Actually included in (IDE)[/li]
[li](DBG) Actually included in (IDE)[/li]
[/list]

[size=20pt]III. Less known/used libraries[/size]
  • Jirr : binding of the Irrlicht game engine
http://jirr.sourceforge.net/
[li]Ogre4j : binding of the Ogre game engine[/li]
http://www.ogre3d.org/wiki/index.php/Ogre4j
[li]SDLJava : binding of the SDL library (Simple DirectMedia Layer)[/li]
http://sourceforge.net/projects/sdljava/
[/list]

[size=20pt]IV. TODO[/size]

  • Set up a JavaGames website (in addition to the forum) to coordinate the efforts
  • Put this report on the website
  • Be sure each named project has a page on dev.java.net
  • Make these pages clean, clear, concise, and write roadmaps
  • Verify each project license (LGPL or BSD, in order to be able to make open-source projects / freewares / commercial projects)
  • Write specifications for (FMT), (FRM), (SKE), and (COL)
  • Separate (FMT), (FRM), (SKE) from various (SCG) (take the best out of all libs)
  • Separate (COL) from (PHY)
  • Merge Vecmath and JAMA if necessary, and implement missing functionalities in the resulting lib
  • Merge (SCG) if possible. If not, make a new library made by all developers of the previous projects. If there are really different needs, make two or more libraries, but anyway, try to avoid fragmentation

[size=20pt]Conclusion[/size]
Please tell me what do you think of it, which needs I missed, if you find the idea of a javagaming website useful, and other thoughts about merging libraries...

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline sunsett

Senior Member




ribbit!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2006-02-20 18:17:04 »

You missed JGN http://javagamenetworking.dev.java.net and FlyingGuns (don't recall the url) for networking. :-p

-Matt Hicks
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #2 - Posted 2006-02-20 19:30:06 »

20/02/2006 :
  • JGN and FlyingGuns added (thanks sunsett)
  • URL of all projects added

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 159
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #3 - Posted 2006-02-20 19:48:40 »

You link to JMF is pointing to FengGUI.

I think last time you posted something like this I ranted on at you so I'll just refrain from commenting this time. Smiley

Kev

Offline Matzon

JGO Knight


Medals: 19
Projects: 1


I'm gonna wring your pants!


« Reply #4 - Posted 2006-02-20 19:54:57 »

technically you can add lwjgl under sound and input

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 364
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #5 - Posted 2006-02-20 21:20:14 »

Bit of a strange mish-mash there, not sure really why you're listing it all and needing to coordinate it ...?

And you've forgotten SDLJava under GFX, and both SWT and LWJGL under WIN. Although LWJGL is only a partial solution under window handling.

Cas Smiley

Offline InfoRital

Junior Member





« Reply #6 - Posted 2006-02-20 22:20:35 »

Maybe you can add :
Jirr : binding for irlicht
Ogre4j : binding for Ogre3D

And a reader of one of my article on Developpez.net emailed and made me know VTK (a powerful scenograph) and its binding for Java.

Java In Games : Java Games Community for French Developers
Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #7 - Posted 2006-02-21 00:40:04 »

don't we have a wiki for this?  Cool

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline cylab

JGO Ninja


Medals: 43



« Reply #8 - Posted 2006-02-21 09:16:37 »

I think you miss his point. The summary above is just a starting point for MargicSparks hope of a discussion for more collaboration/merger inside the java gaming community. I have followed his posts, so I can say, this is not the first attempt in this direction ;-)

Unfortunatly I think MagicSpark misses a point, too. There is just no interest in a merger of any of the above frameworks. It's more an ego thing like "my library is better than yours... at least it's _my_ library". To honest, I would/will act the same, since it's more of an hobby for me (and others on this board). The only chance I see is simply to start merge and reorganize code in a new source tree, for projects where the licences allow forks, hoping that some of the core developers jump on the bandwagon once it's rolling.

This is a major undertaking and I would be surprised to see this happen.

Nevertheless I am sorry for this attitude ;-)


Mathias - I Know What [you] Did Last Summer!
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #9 - Posted 2006-02-21 09:32:56 »

>(SCR) BeanShell (best), Groovy (not bad), Jython (supports Python)

Whats so good about bsh for making it the "best"? Its pretty much the slowest option.

Other scripting languages are: Pnuts, Jelly, TCL, JRuby, JudoScript (js), Rhino (js), ObjectScript, Yoix, Hecl and others.

While its not a scripting language Janino can be used for scripting, too.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #10 - Posted 2006-02-21 15:50:15 »

21/02/2006 :
  • JMF website URL fixed (thanks kevglass)
  • Added LWJGL under (WIN)
  • Added LWJGL under (MED) and (INP)
  • Removed commentaries about script languages.
  • Changed a bit the Intro

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member




shiny.


« Reply #11 - Posted 2006-02-21 16:07:38 »

  • Set up a JavaGames website (in addition to the forum) to coordinate the efforts
http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games ?

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #12 - Posted 2006-02-21 16:20:59 »

You link to JMF is pointing to FengGUI.

Fixed. Thanks.

Quote
I think last time you posted something like this I ranted on at you so I'll just refrain from commenting this time. Smiley

Hell, I just can't say anything and people think : "Hey it's the guy who, one day, wanted to make a fusion of all existing middlewares... He will never understand.. Ahh.. Damn newbies.."  Grin Grin Grin Anyway, thanks not to rant on at me one more time.
Please not that _i don't want anymore to make a big fusion_. This is just stupid. But I had to crash me by myself before being convinced of that. (Gamma has been stopped months ago  Embarrassed )

technically you can add lwjgl under sound and input
Done. Thanks.

Bit of a strange mish-mash there, not sure really why you're listing it all and needing to coordinate it ...?
1. To make a summary of the existing libs, even if it's useful only for me.
2. And to collect advice from the guys who made wonder with Java, unlike me.
In fact, I had this motivation since I looked at the JSR I can't remember the number that was talking about a "Game Development Profile" and was listing 9 development areas. This JSR have been withdrawn.. But it's still actual I think.

And you've forgotten SDLJava under GFX, and both SWT and LWJGL under WIN. Although LWJGL is only a partial solution under window handling.
I left SDLJava out, because I don't think it's sooo used. (Say, I can't see any board on java-gaming.org about it). If I'm wrong, I'll add it.

Maybe you can add :
Jirr : binding for irlicht
Ogre4j : binding for Ogre3D

And a reader of one of my article on Developpez.net emailed and made me know VTK (a powerful scenograph) and its binding for Java.
Hmm.. thanks InfoRital for pointing this out, but.. I just don't know where it could fit. They are not widely used as far as I know. I think they're not going in the good direction.. Jirr and Ogre4j are feasible in Java with only JOGL and JOAL as dependencies. So why make a JNI binding of all the rest ?
[size=8pt]Because it's already made, Doc ![/size]

don't we have a wiki for this?  Cool
Oh, that's right. I didn't event know there was one...
I took a look at it, but here are some of my thoughts about it :
  • It's not sufficiently known (just make a poll)
  • It's a bit disorganized, and lack of content
  • CollabNet may be a great piece of work, it sucks for forums & wikis (IMHO. Think about it. Why javagaming forum isn't on dev.java.net  Cool ?) We have plenty of excellent open-source wiki engines out there, let's use them.
Anyway, making my proposition of a "website" a wiki is a good idea.

I think you miss his point. The summary above is just a starting point for MargicSparks hope of a discussion for more collaboration/merger inside the java gaming community. I have followed his posts, so I can say, this is not the first attempt in this direction ;-)

That's right, exactly what I wanted to say.

Unfortunatly I think MagicSpark misses a point, too. There is just no interest in a merger of any of the above frameworks. It's more an ego thing like "my library is better than yours... at least it's _my_ library". To honest, I would/will act the same, since it's more of an hobby for me (and others on this board).
Hmm... You mean the project leads won't start a collaborating effort ? That may be right.. And yes indeed the ego thing is something really strong in the programmer's heart. And I would/will act the same, too. (Actually I'm doing that with Xith3D and JOODE, making the war against Java3D, jME, and ODEJava..).
But aside from this fact, there's several interests in merging _some_ libraries :
  • Fragmentation. What is it ? Basically two facts. You can't choose between existing libs, because you don't really need all they do, but none of them fulfil exactly your needs. And different programmers do several times the same work, probably falling in the same pitfalls...
  • Maintenance and Support : We have a much larger user-base when we have one lib for one need.

The only chance I see is simply to start merge and reorganize code in a new source tree, for projects where the licences allow forks, hoping that some of the core developers jump on the bandwagon once it's rolling.
Maybe yes, maybe no. I agree sometime starting to work on your own is the best way to go, as others can see that your idea works indeed and they go with you.. But we will probably end up with _another_ dead fork.

This is a major undertaking and I would be surprised to see this happen.

Nevertheless I am sorry for this attitude ;-)
I do so.

>(SCR) BeanShell (best), Groovy (not bad), Jython (supports Python)

Whats so good about bsh for making it the "best"? Its pretty much the slowest option.

Other scripting languages are: Pnuts, Jelly, TCL, JRuby, JudoScript (js), Rhino (js), ObjectScript, Yoix, Hecl and others.

While its not a scripting language Janino can be used for scripting, too.
Okay I must admit I have almost no experience in scripting languages and my commentaries were based on things I've read on this forum. Now I didn't added the whole list, cause I don't think it's useful. But if best suited script languages for games aren't the three I named, please tell me, and I'll change it.
[size=8pt]About BeanShell : it was because it's Java-syntax compatible.[/size]

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #13 - Posted 2006-02-21 16:21:58 »

Answered. In the previous post.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #14 - Posted 2006-02-21 20:59:46 »

[...]
Okay I must admit I have almost no experience in scripting languages and my commentaries were based on things I've read on this forum. Now I didn't added the whole list, cause I don't think it's useful. But if best suited script languages for games aren't the three I named, please tell me, and I'll change it.
[size=8pt]About BeanShell : it was because it's Java-syntax compatible.[/size]

Well, I havent tried em all. But I think pnuts is pretty nice, too. And I'm using janino alot for scripting (again). [Janino is a very fast on-the-fly compiler.]

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #15 - Posted 2006-02-22 16:44:21 »

Okay, something concrete now. Having Java3D and Xith3D side by side is a bit redundant, since
  • Xith3D was a fork of Java3D when it died. It was developed by David Yazel for his game, Magicosm
  • David has retired of development. William Denniss took the succession, but the development isn't as active as it used to be.
  • Java3D was bring back to live by the community
So we have 2 APIs with the same design, and pretty much the same functionalities, except that Xith3D handle Sound & Collision Detection. I think it would be better to merge the codebases and make a better work together. Say, I don't want to put jME in the game, because it's too diferent from J3D and X3D. So we would have basically three APIs for (SCG) : Java3D-Xith3D / jME / Aviatrix3D
About (FMT), (FRM), and (SKE) I think this is a task that can implemented in a generic manner so all (SCG) can handle them. That would save us a lot of work time. But to achieve this goal we have to define open standards, then implement them.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #16 - Posted 2006-02-22 17:10:08 »

There are some fairly big differences between Java3D and Xith as I understand it, as far as the internal architecture of the two APIs is concerned, more or less based on what they are for- Xith is designed for games writing so it loses some of the more good practice/thread safety type features in favour of performance. They are similar to write to, but I think they act quite differently in use.

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #17 - Posted 2006-02-22 18:39:45 »

A very nice scripting language for Java games.

http://www.alice.unibo.it:8080/tuProlog/

Yes it's prolog and it fits like a glove when working out on a system to do NPC dialog.

don't we have a wiki for this?  Cool

I think this thread should ALSO be made into a wiki article.

About Jirr, jOgre SDLjava perhaps you could link them in a section for less used/known java apis. There aren't so much java gaming apis like that.
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #18 - Posted 2006-02-23 16:34:00 »

There are some fairly big differences between Java3D and Xith as I understand it, as far as the internal architecture of the two APIs is concerned, more or less based on what they are for- Xith is designed for games writing so it loses some of the more good practice/thread safety type features in favour of performance. They are similar to write to, but I think they act quite differently in use.
Mmhh.. yes maybe, but actually what I worry about is the following : Imagine I want to make a game, I have a wonderful idea. Okay I write a Design Document, and find some talent people, and among them one or more programmers. I really don't care if they libraries they use are thread-safe or not ! As long as they do their job, I'm happy with that. Now I'm not a game designer (not yet). I do game programming in my spare time, just for fun. Sometime people ask me "which library/scenegraph should I use ?". And I just don't know what to answer them ! I may say :
  • Well, use Xith3D. It'll be fine. At least, I'm using it and I can probably give you advice
  • or,
  • Err.. you should use jME it seems simpler for beginners
  • or,
  • Hmm.. Java3D proven to be the faster scenegraph at the last benchmark in date.. you will probably be happy with it.
That's not a good situation I think.. Don't you agree there would be ONE best approach ? Or do you have to chose one lib, to what you can do with it, and throw out the others ?
I think you can do one scenegraph that fulfil everybody needs (in graphic game programming), don't you think ? If you make it in a really modular lib where one can reimplement which part you want.. so you can privilegiate speed, or clearness, etc.

A very nice scripting language for Java games.

http://www.alice.unibo.it:8080/tuProlog/

Yes it's prolog and it fits like a glove when working out on a system to do NPC dialog.

Hmm... we really have to do a poll to know the best scripting language  Tongue

don't we have a wiki for this?  Cool

I think this thread should ALSO be made into a wiki article.

About Jirr, jOgre SDLjava perhaps you could link them in a section for less used/known java apis. There aren't so much java gaming apis like that.
Hmm, yeah, I'm thinking about reorganizing a bit the wiki, but I don't know what the administrators would think of it.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #19 - Posted 2006-02-23 17:46:04 »

Quote
Don't you agree there would be ONE best approach ?
I know how to use J3D, to some degree and that is good but I am glad that if I did run into something unsurmountable when I was trying to develop something with it I would like to be able to switch to another API that fits my needs better. I don't agree that a single scenegraph can do everything I want it to or if one can then it could be so abstract or so huge as to be impractical.

I'm not one of these far right free market nutters that seem to be about 80% of the internet, but I think that choice is important. It is good to be able to explain the similarities or differences between APIs and let potential users decide for themselves. I realise that some people may find that offputting, but my counter to that would be that if someone is too dense to choose a 3d api they are clearly going to be unable to get to grips with 3d programming so it's no real loss...
Offline sunsett

Senior Member




ribbit!


« Reply #20 - Posted 2006-02-23 18:28:01 »

I would challenge anyone to find any significant reason to use Java3D or Xith3D over jME.  It has been my experience recently that jME has FAR surpassed that of any of its competition.  I have been wrong before.....I'll wait for the oohs and awws to quiet down....but if I am wrong I'd love to get some reasoning as to why. :-p

-Matt Hicks
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #21 - Posted 2006-02-23 20:25:10 »

Hmm... we really have to do a poll to know the best scripting language  Tongue

A more informative poll would be asking what's the better scripting language for what purpose. Prolog is wonderful for dialog and creating a sort of "brain" to npcs.

For more mundane tasks like gui scripts and configuration, load/save scripts beanshell or javascript are my best choice, whatever is faster.

Edit: Some games are already using rule based ai systems like Oblivion with their RadientAI so i don't think it's too wild to think on terms of rule-based systems for game purposes.
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #22 - Posted 2006-02-23 20:32:33 »

I would challenge anyone to find any significant reason to use Java3D or Xith3D over jME.  It has been my experience recently that jME has FAR surpassed that of any of its competition.  I have been wrong before.....I'll wait for the oohs and awws to quiet down....but if I am wrong I'd love to get some reasoning as to why. :-p

-Matt Hicks

I deslike jME because there are a lot of tutorials but no concise user and dev  manual for the engine.
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #23 - Posted 2006-02-23 20:36:38 »

Quote
Don't you agree there would be ONE best approach ?
I know how to use J3D, to some degree and that is good but I am glad that if I did run into something unsurmountable when I was trying to develop something with it I would like to be able to switch to another API that fits my needs better. I don't agree that a single scenegraph can do everything I want it to or if one can then it could be so abstract or so huge as to be impractical.
Hmmm... I'm not so sure.. Huge ? Not if you split parts in different jars and if they're not inter-dependant (except of the core).

I would challenge anyone to find any significant reason to use Java3D or Xith3D over jME. It has been my experience recently that jME has FAR surpassed that of any of its competition. I have been wrong before.....I'll wait for the oohs and awws to quiet down....but if I am wrong I'd love to get some reasoning as to why. :-p

-Matt Hicks
Hmm... you may be right, but anyways it's a lovely way to fall into a heavy flame war.

Hmm... we really have to do a poll to know the best scripting language Tongue

A more informative poll would be asking what's the better scripting language for what purpose. Prolog is wonderful for dialog and creating a sort of "brain" to npcs.

For more mundane tasks like gui scripts and configuration, load/save scripts beanshell or javascript are my best choice, whatever is faster.

Edit: Some games are already using rule based ai systems like Oblivion with their RadientAI so i don't think it's too wild to think on terms of rule-based systems for game purposes.
OK. Interesting.

I would challenge anyone to find any significant reason to use Java3D or Xith3D over jME. It has been my experience recently that jME has FAR surpassed that of any of its competition. I have been wrong before.....I'll wait for the oohs and awws to quiet down....but if I am wrong I'd love to get some reasoning as to why. :-p

-Matt Hicks

I deslike jME because there are a lot of tutorials but no concise user and dev manual for the engine.
That's not very important and can be easily fixed. If sunsett says the true, and if this is the only reason why not to use jME, then jME can easily be the best scenegraph.

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Member




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #24 - Posted 2006-02-23 20:43:14 »

Then we could just tell everybody "jME is the way to go" and all would be perfect ?

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline sunsett

Senior Member




ribbit!


« Reply #25 - Posted 2006-02-23 20:47:51 »

So you have a problem with tutorials, hundreds of tests, terminology guides, a user updatable wiki, a forum that has more activity than any other open-source project I've ever seen, etc. all freely available and you don't have read some lame guide or search a crappy mailing list to find your answers.....I see your point....maybe I should switch to Xith so I can have an under-developed, under-active project that I can run instead. Wink

*gosh I love ranting run-on sentences*

I meant all that in the best light possible...no offense intended of course.  Cool

-Matt Hicks
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #26 - Posted 2006-02-23 21:01:01 »

So you have a problem with tutorials, hundreds of tests, terminology guides, a user updatable wiki, a forum that has more activity than any other open-source project I've ever seen, etc. all freely available and you don't have read some lame guide or search a crappy mailing list to find your answers.....I see your point....maybe I should switch to Xith so I can have an under-developed, under-active project that I can run instead. Wink

*gosh I love ranting run-on sentences*

I meant all that in the best light possible...no offense intended of course.  Cool

-Matt Hicks

Yes a good user and devs manual would save a lot of time. Browsing trough endless mailing lists, unrelated tutorials and forum posts is not a good solution to find information quickly. Don't overlook good api documnetation and good user/dev manuals.

I still remenber the hours of wasted time i spent with swing trying to figure out why my code wasn't working because a mistake in the api docs of the swing list jcomponent. In the version of swing version i used a list index value is converted internaly and silently into a short and then back into an int causing hard to find bugs.

Consider something like good dicumentation that let's you find info fast and without mistakes an advantage just like having a engine with many features and fatser than others. In other words stop thinking like a geek in your own world and think about other peoples worlds. Wink Im not posting this in any malicious or offensive way by the way.  Smiley
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #27 - Posted 2006-02-23 22:59:16 »

Quote
I would challenge anyone to find any significant reason to use Java3D or Xith3D over jME.
I know how to use Java3D already.

I have no idea how the performance compares, and I'm very open to changing over if it ever becomes a problem, but right now J3d does all I need and it doesn't come with the overhead of needing to learn a new API.
Offline sunsett

Senior Member




ribbit!


« Reply #28 - Posted 2006-02-24 02:13:49 »

Breakfast++ that is a profound reason to stick with Java3D. Wink

zingbat, hehe, I agree there is some benefit to a manual, but the problem with that and jME is that jME is so consistently being added to that it would have to be frequently kept up to date...I know that's not much of a problem with Xith. Wink

I think that jME is making strides that direction by providing the wiki that allows the users to keep it up to date.

-Matt Hicks
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #29 - Posted 2006-02-24 12:39:12 »

I like to think that laziness is an important skill for any programmer...
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