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  If you ever wanted a reason to use a modern langauge...  (Read 42215 times)
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Offline princec

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« Reply #30 - Posted 2006-02-07 18:11:02 »

What are you on about 2 years at best? 1.4 came out on 13th February 2002, which is 4 years ago, and for some time while it was in beta I was working on the precursor to LWJGL. I wrote Alien Flux, what, 3 years ago, and the terrain demo thing even before that by at least a year. The Mac still doesn't even have a normal 1.5 installation, and 1.5 is barely any faster than 1.4 anyway.

Java's basically been good for AAA gaming since 2002.

Cas Smiley

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #31 - Posted 2006-02-07 19:29:10 »

That's my point. After having been around for 10 years Java has been a viable option for gaming for only two years at the most.

Um.. you ignored the relevant bits of my post that showed how that is not entirely true.  It is only true for a subset of "gaming".  Java has been used in games prior to the last two years.

There is more to gaming than Quake N.

Offline Vorax

Senior Devvie


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« Reply #32 - Posted 2006-02-07 19:55:36 »

There is more to gaming than Quake N.

What do you mean?  Huh  Like Doom 3... or do you mean like UT2004?






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Offline .uj

Junior Devvie





« Reply #33 - Posted 2006-02-07 22:09:37 »

Java's basically been good for AAA gaming since 2002.

For 2D games right.

Wasn't it around 2002 that Sun finally admitted that they had let the Java3D users down and promised to better themselves with JOGL?
Offline .uj

Junior Devvie





« Reply #34 - Posted 2006-02-07 23:04:40 »

Absolutely agreed  - at the moment the transition from C++ to C# is much easier. The question has to be why arn't more games companies using *any* modern language - C# or Java, I don't really mind - just as long as we start seeing games with more features, gameplay and innovation because the developers safe enough time in using modern tools to add them.

From the replies to my blog entry it seems to be strictly console related - to port to a console we need low level optimisation control => C++. Presumably this changes as the console/PC line blurrs.

Kev

To ask why gaming companies haven't been using Java or C# is very stupid indeed. It's because those languages haven't been a viable option.

C++ is a modern language. There's no special need to move to Java or C#. What would that be?
Offline kevglass

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« Reply #35 - Posted 2006-02-07 23:15:46 »

I guess I must be stupid then. Fair enough.

Kev

Offline f.l.x

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there is no place like 127.0.0.1


« Reply #36 - Posted 2006-02-08 00:22:40 »

C++ is a modern language. There's no special need to move to Java or C#. What would that be?

ease of distribution for 3 diferent platforms (not many solaris or bsd players :p) and shorter development and debuging cycles are two good reasons for me

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Offline Vorax

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System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #37 - Posted 2006-02-08 00:31:08 »

C++ is a modern language. There's no special need to move to Java or C#. What would that be?

ease of distribution for 3 diferent platforms (not many solaris or bsd players :p) and shorter development and debuging cycles are two good reasons for me

I like those reasons to. 

The game industry hasn't latched on to Java or C#  for three reasons; 
1. Performance myths
2. The sheer number of C++ engines and API's available (usually including their own)
3. Most game developers know C++ and don't want to switch (related to reason 1)

1 & 3 will go away if 2 is no longer an issue.

PS: I forgot one, but it's a biggy - porting to consoles isn't an option (for Java games) without a big investment or a language port Sad

Online kappa
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« Reply #38 - Posted 2006-02-08 00:45:02 »

i'd say if you are not convinced that the newer languages will be better carry on with ur current language, the games industry will probably start switching once they start seeing competitiors out doing them with the advantages that modern languages have to offer.
Offline .uj

Junior Devvie





« Reply #39 - Posted 2006-02-08 02:44:50 »

I guess I must be stupid then. Fair enough.

Kev

So you just cave in without discussion? Well then you must be stupid and you posted a view worth nothing. Did you post for fame or something?
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Offline aldacron

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« Reply #40 - Posted 2006-02-08 02:47:42 »

I really don't care what the rest of the game industry does as long as LWJGL/JOGL/JOAL and other enabling APIs stay around for me to make games with. If Java catches on, great. If not, fine. But I do believe it's going to get some momentum with the release of the SGS. NCSoft Austin are experimenting with JME (which leads me to believe they are also experimenting with SGS), Three Rings has had success with Puzzle Pirates - including getting picked up for retail distribution by Ubisoft and winning IGF awards - and has another game in development using JME. Tribal Trouble recently was made available from the Garage Games shop. Java's visibilty in the game industry is increasing. It will be nice to see it catch on, but really it doesn't matter to me one way or another in the end.
Online kappa
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« Reply #41 - Posted 2006-02-08 03:17:40 »

So you just cave in without discussion? Well then you must be stupid and you posted a view worth nothing. Did you post for fame or something?

you shouldn't be so harsh calling others stupid and such, doing so no longer makes it an intelligent discussion but more of a flame war.
Offline Vorax

Senior Devvie


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System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #42 - Posted 2006-02-08 03:31:18 »

I guess I must be stupid then. Fair enough.

Kev

Off topic:   Kev, Martian Madness 2 is looking pretty cool - not bad for a stupid guy! Cheesy

PS: Can you chew gum and code at the same time?  I tried that once and ended up gumming my keyboard Wink

PPS:  The devil made me say that - this is my 666th post - now I can *finally* unleash the minions and take over the earth!!! MUHAHAHAHA

PPPS:  Did I mention I have been home sick for two days with a fever of 101?

PPPPS:  To any religious people: sorry about that whole unleashing the minions thing - I really have no plans to unleash the minions at this time.

PPPPPS: Ok that last PPPPS was also uncalled for.  I have no minions...really.   I am going to go lie down and put a cold cloth on my head.

Offline blahblahblahh

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« Reply #43 - Posted 2006-02-08 09:34:48 »

From the replies to my blog entry it seems to be strictly console related - to port to a console we need low level optimisation control => C++. Presumably this changes as the console/PC line blurrs.

To ask why gaming companies haven't been using Java or C# is very stupid indeed. It's because those languages haven't been a viable option.

C++ is a modern language. There's no special need to move to Java or C#. What would that be?


As a separate route entirely...Overheard several times at Casuality: major pro web games devs (some of whom I know are making tens of millions of dollars a year from web games) are still using Director - a lot of people leapfrogged java because Sun was so damn slow to put 1 and 1 together and get 2, and adopted MM (now Adobe, of course) products; they're moving away from that and *back into C++* because C++ solves their problems with Director et al, and C# and java are not yet being marketed to these people properly.

c.f. http://www.java-gaming.org/forums/index.php?topic=12392.new#new

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Breakfast

Senior Devvie




for great justice!


« Reply #44 - Posted 2006-02-08 11:54:27 »

My god, Director is the worst development platform I have ever been cursed to work with. I'm amazed anyone could ever achieve anything with it. Programming with lingo is like building a house but having to use sponges and jelly instead of bricks and mortar.

I wonder what Sparkle will bring to the game: http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2006/02/07/expression_interactive_designer/ - if it works a bit like Flash but lets me use a reliable programming language it could easily eat any rivals.

I'm completely in agreement with Kevglass' blog posting about modern languages. It does seem as if, although they're pushing the envelope hard in some directions,  the game development community are stuck in the programming practices of 10 years ago. Obviously, I'm a complete outsider here and doubtless entirely wrong, but that is the way it looks to me...
Offline CaptainJester

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« Reply #45 - Posted 2006-02-08 12:56:08 »

Look's like someone is taking the plunge and investigating Java.

http://gdmike.statbuff.com/?p=12

Offline zingbat

Senior Devvie




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« Reply #46 - Posted 2006-02-08 17:16:19 »

Quote
To ask why gaming companies haven't been using Java or C# is very stupid indeed. It's because those languages haven't been a viable option.
C++ is a modern language. There's no special need to move to Java or C#. What would that be?

And that's a very stupid answer. You are claiming that if people don't use Java it's because they don't need it without really puting any tought on it.

If the advantage was just using a modern language then people would be programming in prolog or haskell. Like other people mentioned it's not just language design which is nothing special in relation to Java.

Java simplifies a lot the development process  and all the compatibility issues and patch code you have to create for multiple platforms by using a good vm. This problem however was in part solved by companies that license parts of a game engine like Havok and Gamebryo. This simply takes problems from game creators backs but the cost of producing games and the problems i mentioned above are not significantly lowered.

Java already has great adavantages to develop PC games that run on multiple machines and os. For xboxs and playstations this would depend on Sun actualy supporting a special vm that would run on these platforms. This would mean that you could run a java game directly on a xbox or a playstation without changing anything. This may not look much at first but in terms of development cost and quality it would be a huge advantage.
Offline arne

Senior Devvie




money is the worst drug- we should not let it rule


« Reply #47 - Posted 2006-02-08 18:08:34 »

I've now found a very big reason, why C++ is crap!

First some unimportant information:
For the International Olympiad in Informatics (IOI) there is a trainings-program from the USA, where everybody can train for the IOI, also from other countries.
There you have to code programs, that solve a specified problem in a specified amount of time (mostly one second) and ram. Then you send those programs through a form to a server, who tests your program.
If you want to see how it's like and if you maybe also want to test yourself, here's a link:
http://ace.delos.com/usacogate
You can also submit Java-Programs, but because you can't at the IOI I'm coding in C++.

Now the important information:
I had an algorithm (for checker challenge) that solved the problem for the hardest testcase in 1,6 seconds on their server, but unfortunately it had to be below 1 second. I tried lots of improvements, but none really worked. I also gave up for about five months. Then yesterday I started again trying and there was now a tip:

If you have programmed modularly and have little subroutines to check diagonals, etc., move that code into the main execution stream. The subroutine call overhead is nontrivial.

I did this and ... it more then doubled the execution speed of my program to 0.77 seconds!!!!!

Aaarghhhh I hate C++ !!!

:: JOODE :: Xith3d :: OdeJava ::
Offline zingbat

Senior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #48 - Posted 2006-02-08 21:30:50 »

Can you do the same program and get the same speed in Java ?

Edit: For small subrotines allways use inline and compile your code with the best speed optimization tricks. Still the results will depend on the machine and cpu used.
Offline kaffiene
« Reply #49 - Posted 2006-02-09 20:55:52 »

Can you do the same program and get the same speed in Java ?

Edit: For small subrotines allways use inline and compile your code with the best speed optimization tricks. Still the results will depend on the machine and cpu used.


For my 2c - I found that under j1.4, I could do generic 3d-stuff in 3d-world at pretty much exaclty the same fps in Java as C++ (partly because the biggest bottleneck is the 3d card, but also because the java was about 80-90% of the C++ code speed)

Since java 1.4, we've seen huge speed increases with 1.5, and 1.6 is showing impressive speedups again (I got a 20% speed up in a ray tracer I wrote from 1.5->1.6)

So yeah, in general Java speed is just not an issue - and I'd say hasn't been since at least 1.4.
Offline arne

Senior Devvie




money is the worst drug- we should not let it rule


« Reply #50 - Posted 2006-02-09 21:10:34 »

Ok - I ported the C++ code to java and got those results:

  with functionswithout functions
C++0.7070.478
Java0.8600.685

Conclusion: Java is still slower than C++ and the optimisation also influences the performance of the Java code, but not as much as it does in C++.

Btw, the program ran slower with server jvm enabled.

Ohh and I used 1.5

EDIT: I made these benchmarks now at my home computer, which is faster than the grading server from usaco.

:: JOODE :: Xith3d :: OdeJava ::
Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
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Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #51 - Posted 2006-02-09 21:34:22 »

Ok - I ported the C++ code to java and got those results:

 
  with functionswithout functions
C++0.7070.478
Java0.8600.685

Conclusion: Java is still slower than C++ and the optimisation also influences the performance of the Java code, but not as much as it does in C++.

Btw, the program ran slower with server jvm enabled.

Ohh and I used 1.5

EDIT: I made these benchmarks now at my home computer, which is faster than the grading server from usaco.
That is a bogus test.  If blah*3 comes along he'll give you all the reasons.  Plus, you cannot just convert code directly.  When you move from one language to another, you have to start fresh and program within the new language's paradigm.  C++ and Java might be similar, but you can code very differently in them.

Offline princec

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« Reply #52 - Posted 2006-02-09 23:21:14 »

Anything in the server VM running for less than a minute is a total waste of time (literally) for a start...

Cas Smiley

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #53 - Posted 2006-02-10 01:02:13 »

he he he

His conclusions are way off... but I don't mind them in the slightest.

This will be public in a month anyway... at GDC we will be showing C++, J2SE and J2ME clients all talking to the SGS server.

You guys really dont think, as much as I might wish I could, it would make business sense for me to put out a server product that only spoke to Java clients do you?


Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #54 - Posted 2006-02-10 01:36:17 »

Quote
To ask why gaming companies haven't been using Java or C# is very stupid indeed. It's because those languages haven't been a viable option.
C++ is a modern language. There's no special need to move to Java or C#. What would that be?

*sigh* 2 to 10 times productivity improvemenst. Well documented. For a start

I wrote C++ code sicne the beginning of C++. I just had to go back and write some again.  And I expereinced the slow down, again.

But you wont believe this ebcause you do not want to.

Someone once asked me what you call a programmer who refuses to change his tools.

I answered "unemployed."

Think about it.  And ask yourself when the last time yo usaw an ad for a microcoder or assembly coder.....

Thsoe of us who are old enough to *have* such memories have seen this all many tiems before.  And the die-hards will go to the unemployment line insisting that "real engineers don't use high level tools."  Swap C++ into your sentance for Java, and it coudl have been written 10 years ago.  Swap C into your senatcne and it coudl have been written 20 years ago.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline Breakfast

Senior Devvie




for great justice!


« Reply #55 - Posted 2006-02-10 10:25:38 »

Interesting blog article on why performance doesn't matter - not gaming relevant, but quite pertinent
Offline .uj

Junior Devvie





« Reply #56 - Posted 2006-02-11 14:15:10 »

Someone once asked me what you call a programmer who refuses to change his tools.

I answered "unemployed."

Changing tools is not an end in itself. What's important is to use the right tool for the job. Up and until say 2 years ago the right tool for graphics intensive games has been C++. It's not about high programmer productivity. It's not about good internal design. It's about raw speed and low-level control. There probably isn't a single company who bet on Java more than two years ago that's still in business. That's were you find your unemployed programmer.

My replies have been regarding the OP's opinion that users of C++ instead of "modern" languages like Java are living in the past. I find that a strange proposition considering that Java hasn't really been a viable alternative for the most of its 10 years of existance. In spite of its alleged modernity it just hasn't cut.

When will we see the first JVM being written in something else than C++ (for non-experimental purposes)? I could bet you anything that C++ will be the right tool for that job for many years to come.
Offline CaptainJester

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Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #57 - Posted 2006-02-11 15:01:53 »

It's not about good internal design. It's about raw speed and low-level control. There probably isn't a single company who bet on Java more than two years ago that's still in business.

Wrong.  Only about 5% of the games on the market need raw speed.  Even then you should only aim for raw speed after you have the game made.

One of the inventors of C said it himself  "First make it work, then make it fast."

If you read Michael Abrash's Graphics Programming Black Book, he even says that you should design good code first before trying to go low level and optimize.  And this was back in 1995 where it was more of an issue.

People who spend the whole project worrying about speed will end up late, cutting features or wont finish because they spend so much time trying to track bugs in unreadable code.

Offline .uj

Junior Devvie





« Reply #58 - Posted 2006-02-11 15:27:25 »

Thsoe of us who are old enough to *have* such memories have seen this all many tiems before.  And the die-hards will go to the unemployment line insisting that "real engineers don't use high level tools."  Swap C++ into your sentance for Java, and it coudl have been written 10 years ago.  Swap C into your senatcne and it coudl have been written 20 years ago.

As I've said before. I'm sure Java is coming of age also for demanding desktop applications, but I can UNDERSTAND why people are reluctant and why they want better arguments than that they wouldn't be "modern" unless they abandon the proven workhorse C++ and immediately start using Java. Java's track-record really isn't that convincing.

You're building your case on the presumption that technological paradigm-shifts happen instantly. You hear about this new thing in the morning and if you haven't adopted it at lunch you're fired in the afternoon. This is a fawlty picture painted to fool people into believing there's such a desperate hurry to jump on the newest bandwaggon. Companies even employ so called evangelists to further stir up this sense of hurry.

Reality looks very different. Technology evolves over decades. Sure you got to adapt but not this year. There's plenty of evidence that you still can make a comfortable living just concentrating on plain good old die-hard C,

http://www.dedasys.com/articles/language_popularity.html


Offline Spasi
« Reply #59 - Posted 2006-02-11 16:07:43 »

Interesting thoughts by someone who knows what he's talking about:

The Next Mainstream Programming Language: A Game Developer’s Perspective, by Tim Sweeney (Epic).
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