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  If you ever wanted a reason to use a modern langauge...  (Read 41540 times)
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Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #120 - Posted 2006-02-13 20:32:35 »

Severance: Blade Of Darkness - that was it!
Offline .uj

Junior Member





« Reply #121 - Posted 2006-02-13 20:42:10 »

Quote
I'm still replying with the OP in mind. The OP expressed astonishment as to why people are sticking to C++ instead of jumping onto something more modern like Java.

Not quite - I was surprised given that modern languages have been viable for games development for a few years why there has been almost no detectable move to modern language. Check out the adverts in the back of GameDev magazine - almost nothing to do with anything other than C++. I'm not surprised the dev's didn't "jump onto something more modern" the minute it was available but there hasn't been much movement in the years that the languages have been useful.

Well, I have a different experience. In my view Java hasn't been quite up to it until version 1.5. Almost (read version 1.4) really isn't an option when it comes to cut-throat competition.

With the version 6 improvements I'd say Java finally is at par with C++. Then you'll have to add another 5 years to overcome the hype "stigma". Let's say around 2010 it will be generally recognized that Java isn't such a bad alternative after all.
Offline .uj

Junior Member





« Reply #122 - Posted 2006-02-13 20:53:27 »

When you talk about C++ for the .net platform you are talking about memory-managed C++. At that point there isn't really any difference between it and C# - they are both compiled to MSIL and run on the .net VM  and I woudl be very surprised if there was any performance advantage to C++ over C#. If you're using unmanaged C++ then you're presumably still stuck with the arcana of memory management and the productivity/performance payoffs that entails.

Schhh. I felt I had to throw in a mine.  Wink 

Well what we really are discussing is runtime systems and not programming languages per se. We're not discussing the relative merits of C++ versus Java as languages. We're discussing their implicit runtime systems; static compiling for C++ and dynamic compiling for Java.

So the real question is: What's better for a certain application? Static or dynamic compilation?

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline .uj

Junior Member





« Reply #123 - Posted 2006-02-13 21:00:50 »

How that became such a hectic discussion of C++ I really don't know.

Well as I suggested to Jeff. Why don't you beam yourself down from the mothership once in a while and find out?
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #124 - Posted 2006-02-13 21:13:00 »

That just shows your lack of perspective. The former was a huge evolutionary leap. The latter is just a small step in evolution. You may have noticed that C++ is also a .NET language. Microsoft is treating C# and C++ on an equal footing with C++ as "Horsepower with a finer degree of control than other Express Editions".

C++ is just a transition language. Once it has done it's job it should go away and make room for a better designed and modern language like C# or Java whatever wins the competition. Microsoft only keeps C++ to soften the transition and because a C compiler is necessary for some programming tasks like kernel and os programming and device driver critical code. The problem with .NET is that it is not even close to the quality of the java vm. Im sure you can google and find plenty of good examples from sites that are not completely biased.

Well, I have a different experience. In my view Java hasn't been quite up to it until version 1.5. Almost (read version 1.4) really isn't an option when it comes to cut-throat competition.

Err ... no. With all the links that have been posted here i wonder why you still think that way. The only thing Java gaming needs is a game similar to Doom3 or the last Quake that uses the tech everyone is talking about at the moment like dynamic soft shadows, hdr and shaders in everything. Just shove it in the face of the sceptics who only believe when they see it. It doesn't even have to be a great game. Doom3 was as much a game as an interactive becnhmark can be called a game. People don't really care much about gameplay in the game business.

Offline .uj

Junior Member





« Reply #125 - Posted 2006-02-13 21:58:51 »

C++ is just a transition language. Once it has done it's job it should go away and make room for a better designed and modern language like C# or Java whatever wins the competition.

I beg to disagree as it's politely called  Wink

As I've stated in another post in this thread, It's not as much about languages as it is about runtime systems. Dynamic compilation will need static compilation forever. That's why C++ will never go away. Both Java and C# build on its powers.

What I'm saying here really is that sometimes it's better to use C++ directly than it is to use it via Java or C#.

That was the runtime story. From a pure language perspective you have much more options in C++ than in the more restrictive Java. But sometimes of course the Java restrictions can be thought of as an advantage.
Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #126 - Posted 2006-02-13 22:14:33 »

Alright .uj here is the question that I was kind of circling around previously.

Can you name a game that is more fun because it was written in C++?
Offline .uj

Junior Member





« Reply #127 - Posted 2006-02-13 22:22:57 »

Alright .uj here is the question that I was kind of circling around previously.

Can you name a game that is more fun because it was written in C++?

Well the funniest game I've ever played is Lemmings and I don't know what language it was written in, probably C.  Grin

But given a choise between nimble Lemmings and quirky Lemmings I probably would have chosen the nimble Lemmings. Why would anybody chose the quirky Lemmings?

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #128 - Posted 2006-02-13 22:44:29 »

Though I have no clue what the truth is, I suspect Lemmings was done in assembler.

Anyway, .uj, you say you are playing devil's advocate... do you have any good arguments?  'cause everything you have come up with so far is crap.

So far the only argument that anyone hasn't totaly demolished is that lack of deployment possibilities on consoles.  Java simply isn't een available in that space at the moment,so if you intend to produce titles for the consoles, you can't do it effectively with Java.

I haven't seen any other valid reasons to choose some other language over Java.. other than personal preferences that is. So I'll rephrase that, I haven't seen any other valid technical limitation that has any noteable effect in the real world.  And keep in mind the productivity benefits of Java (that are well known now and therefore not in dispute).

Offline .uj

Junior Member





« Reply #129 - Posted 2006-02-13 23:11:37 »

Though I have no clue what the truth is, I suspect Lemmings was done in assembler.

Well isn't that something to think about. If Lemmings was programmed in assembly and not in C, it's like today really. You expect games to be programmed in Java but in reality they're programmed in C++.  Grin

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline .uj

Junior Member





« Reply #130 - Posted 2006-02-13 23:26:33 »

So far the only argument that anyone hasn't totaly demolished is that lack of deployment possibilities on consoles.  Java simply isn't een available in that space at the moment,so if you intend to produce titles for the consoles, you can't do it effectively with Java.

So Java has a problem with deployment right. Isn't that a strange limitation for a run-anywhere language like Java?  Grin



Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #131 - Posted 2006-02-13 23:31:58 »

Though I have no clue what the truth is, I suspect Lemmings was done in assembler.

Well isn't that something to think about. If Lemmings was programmed in assembly and not in C, it's like today really. You expect games to be programmed in Java but in reality they're programmed in C++.  Grin

Not really.  When Lemmings was written C++ wasn't available and neither was Java.  Game coders were still coming from an era where even C compilers were rare (e.g. codeing on Commodore 64s).  The operating systems of the day had almost NO support for graphcis and sound.. you had to code DIRECTLY to the hardware by poking registers.  In effect you had to write a device driver every time you wrote a video game.

Java is not designed to write device drivers.  That's something it isn't even supposed to be good at. C and C++ WERE designed to interface DIRECTLY with hardware,and therefore write device drivers.  The company I work for now makes cusomt hardware and we do all of our driver development in C++.  We started writing drivers in C++ even when Microsoft claimed they did not support it (that may still be their claim), because C++ offered many advantages over writing the drivers in C.

We won't be writing drivers in Java because Java has no facility to poke at registers in the direct ways that are needed to write an efficient driver.  But these days mainly because of the diversity in graphics and sound hardware the operating systems have supplied APIs for accessing the hardware and device drivers are used to map those standard APIs to the bit twiddling required to work the hardware.  Nobody needs to write to the metal to program games anymore.  That's been the case for at least the ten years that Java has been around.  Therefore the "need" for the C/C++ ability to "get to the metal" has been gone for just as long.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #132 - Posted 2006-02-13 23:35:23 »

So far the only argument that anyone hasn't totaly demolished is that lack of deployment possibilities on consoles.  Java simply isn't een available in that space at the moment,so if you intend to produce titles for the consoles, you can't do it effectively with Java.
So Java has a problem with deployment right. Isn't that a strange limitation for a run-anywhere language like Java?  Grin

And yet with Java the ability exists for the JVM to be ported to new platforms along with a few key libraries (e.g. LWJGL) and then the games that are ALREADY written for currently supported platforms will work on the new platforms without even needing to be recompiled.  In many cases the game developers won't even need to get a development kit for the new platforms. (e.g. several people in these forums have deploy games that run perfectly on the Mac platform and yet the developers have never even touched a Mac.)

Offline .uj

Junior Member





« Reply #133 - Posted 2006-02-14 00:06:38 »

Therefore the "need" for the C/C++ ability to "get to the metal" has been gone for just as long.

Yes but what you're talking about is the C ability of the C++ language. You can write to the metal for sure, but you can also write very nice OO code in C++. In a way C++ is more OO than Java. You have multiple inheritance of implementation, you have value semantics for objects, you have operator overloading, you have a more advanced generics, etcetera, and, in addition, as a special bonus, you don't have to use OO at all if you prefer not.
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #134 - Posted 2006-02-14 00:17:56 »

Wow...what a thread.  Ok, it seems that .uj just has it for C++ and not Java.  That's fine with me.  Stay in the C++ camp, watch your market continue to diminish and when you are ready (read: need a job because no one is hiring C++ devs any more) then come back in and get re-educated.  You state that you know both C++ and Java very well.  If you acutally did, you would not have made most of the arguments you posted in this thread.  Stating that  Lemmings done in Java would be  "quirky" while the C++ version would be "nimble" shows your prejudice right there.  If you can't get past your comfort in C++, and lack of comfort in Java, no amount of proof is going to change your mind. 

Done.

-Chris 

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #135 - Posted 2006-02-14 00:25:36 »

If i might CM, Id suggest "Done and Locked."

There really is no point to this thread any more (nor the OTHER thread where he is spouting errant nonsense and insults over in the J3D area.  You might as well lock that one too.)

If he takes other threads off topic in this direction in the future, I would recommend an account lock.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline .uj

Junior Member





« Reply #136 - Posted 2006-02-14 00:32:24 »

Done.

Well ChrisM, you must have missed why I'm posting:

"I'm playing the devil's advocate because I like Java. I think now and with version 6 is the time when Java finally is up to it on the desktop. But you have to convince the C++ people so I've put myself in their place to collect arguments"

If you missed that you also probably missed that it's not a C++ vs. Java issue really . It's a static vs. dynamic compilation issue.

Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #137 - Posted 2006-02-14 00:36:44 »

Done.

Well ChrisM, you must have missed why I'm posting:

"I'm playing the devil's advocate because I like Java. I think now and with version 6 is the time when Java finally is up to it on the desktop. But you have to convince the C++ people so I've put myself in their place to collect arguments"

Playing devil's advocate is fine when you use sound arguments.  Most of the arguments you have made against Java are old, misgiuded and outdated.

Quote
If you missed that you also probably missed that it's not a C++ vs. Java issue really . It's a static vs. dynamic compilation issue.

Ummm...YOU turned it into a C++ vs. Java issue.  No one else.

-Chris

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #138 - Posted 2006-02-14 00:43:00 »

If thats being a "devil's advocate" then he needs to seriously uptown his legal services.

nuff said

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline .uj

Junior Member





« Reply #139 - Posted 2006-02-14 00:54:12 »

If i might CM, Id suggest "Done and Locked."

There really is no point to this thread any more (nor the OTHER thread where he is spouting errant nonsense and insults over in the J3D area.  You might as well lock that one too.)

If he takes other threads off topic in this direction in the future, I would recommend an account lock.

I've been very careful to stay close to the topic and the OP has participated many times. It's a general discussion forum so some slack should be allowed I think.

Sorry Jeff but your argumentation powers are extremely weak.
Sorry Jeff but it's not my fault you lack a sense of humor.
Sorry Jeff but maybe you shouldn't take yourself too seriously.
Sorry Jeff but who are you to pull rank and assign troll status to others.

Anyway I don't care. Do what you like. I've argumented in good faith to the best of my knowledge.

Finally I'm a she by the name of Ulrika. I'm quitting this discussion now.

Offline .uj

Junior Member





« Reply #140 - Posted 2006-02-14 01:02:56 »

Playing devil's advocate is fine when you use sound arguments.  Most of the arguments you have made against Java are old, misgiuded and outdated.

Sure but at least I made some arguments right. The only thing you seem to be able to muster yourself to is some kind of style rating. I get an A for old, misgiuded and outdated. Is that all you got?

What I'm missing here are the counter-arguments. What do you have? Jeff pulling rank calling me a troll wanting to dispel me from the forum? You sure are a bleak bunch!

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #141 - Posted 2006-02-14 01:19:53 »

Sure but at least I made some arguments right. The only thing you seem to be able to muster yourself to is some kind of style rating. I get an A for old, misgiuded and outdated. Is that all you got?

What I'm missing here are the counter-arguments. What do you have? Jeff pulling rank calling me a troll wanting to dispel me from the forum? You sure are a bleak bunch!

In several ocasions you weren't as nice or civil as you claim to be. Besides you have 10 pages of  arguments that you were really never able to argue against. Some people even bothered themselves to give you links. What else do you want? Instead of running around in circles just try to learn a bit more about computers so that you understand better what was been told to you. When you are playing devils advocate as you put it theres is allways a time to quit.
Offline .uj

Junior Member





« Reply #142 - Posted 2006-02-14 01:34:25 »

In several ocasions you weren't as nice or civil as you claim to be. Besides you have 10 pages of  arguments that you were really never able to argue against. Some people even bothered themselves to give you links. What else do you want? Instead of running around in circles just try to learn a bit more about computers so that you understand better what was been told to you. When you are playing devils advocate as you put it theres is allways a time to quit.

Well zingbat, shoot if you have something on your mind instead of beating about the bush.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #143 - Posted 2006-02-14 02:54:19 »

.uj  are you ill or something?

Nobody is beating around the bush, you've been presented with tons of reasons that the tired old nonsense arguments that you bring up are simply bogus.  Go back and read them.  You claim to be "missing" counter arguments and yet the thread is full of them.  What is the matter that you don't see them?

You tell zingbat that he is beating around the bush, and yet all he does, is point back to all the counter arguements as well, no beating around the bush.. people are shoving the the counter arguments for all of your points in your face and you just bring up the point again as if nobody has written anything!

You aren't being devil's advocate, you are being dense.

Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #144 - Posted 2006-02-14 03:24:50 »

What I'm missing here are the counter-arguments. What do you have? Jeff pulling rank calling me a troll wanting to dispel me from the forum? You sure are a bleak bunch!

Umm, weellll lets see...  Oh yeah, Jeff and ChrisM are responsible for the existence of these forums.  So how do you call it pulling rank?

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 378
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #145 - Posted 2006-02-14 11:03:32 »

So the conclusion of the thread was ... what? We all use Java in here and we're still surprised after all these years that no-one's moved on in the industry, and it turns out this might be something to do with consoles. There are some C++ programmers around who are obsessed with stuff that managers and bean counters don't give two shits about but their jobs are fortunately assured for the foreseeable future because Sun hasn't managed to get a fast VM on any console hardware.

Cas Smiley

Offline Breakfast

Senior Member




for great justice!


« Reply #146 - Posted 2006-02-14 13:03:19 »

I think the conclusion was that different languages are different and that we kind of like Java and that actually it doesn' t matter very much.

Same as it ever was.
Offline Mr_Light

Senior Member


Medals: 1


shiny.


« Reply #147 - Posted 2006-02-14 13:08:59 »

13:54 * Mr_Light sends lemmings all over .uj

x-mas lemmings was difficuld, brr. They did look funky though. and I'm pritty sure lemmings with all his versions actually have been written in differend languages. I beleave I can name 5 differend versions and I've never owned an commondor.

anyways I think theres a bigger issue at work not just the console-ness or the lack of. How do you discriminate between a good student and a bad student from a java school as an company. I don't want to get in to the arguement of java school vs. I wonder how this works at sun and other companies. But even this issue is perhaps broader because I see more and more often the request for code clamps to be send along side of your resume. Its the game-market beeing unstable enough as it is, problems with employees are rather avoided I gues.

It's harder to read code than to write it. - it's even harder to write readable code.

The gospel of brother Riven: "The guarantee that all bugs are in *your* code is worth gold." Amen brother a-m-e-n.
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #148 - Posted 2006-02-14 20:44:17 »

So in the end, syntax is syntax.

When I inetrview Im lookign for more at how the person I am interviewing goes about solving problems then I am as to exactly how they write code.

One of my favorite interview questions is actually an oldy from low level game programmign days on the 6502.

What is the result of this code?

A ^= B;
B ^= A;
A ^= B;

Its not a "test" in the sense that someone doesnt have to sovle it to get the job, but II learn a  lot about how someone goes about their job by what they do with this.  (unelss they already know the answer.)

People who just stare at it and don't even start trying to work it out (and Ive interviewed a suprising number of those) go in the reject pile immediately.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline Tzan

Junior Member





« Reply #149 - Posted 2006-02-14 23:10:10 »

I dont think I've ever used  ^= before so I looked it up in my Java book.
Hey, right there on page61 is the exact code snip with full explanation, haha Smiley

After the description the author had this to say:

Ivor Horton:
"In the old days when all programmers wore lab coats, when computers were driven by steam, and when memory was measured in bytes rather than megabytes, this mechanism could be quite useful since you could...  "

(no spoilers here)
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