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  Mario 4k  (Read 6617 times)
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Offline jung

Senior Newbie





« Posted 2006-01-04 18:39:53 »

Here are one screenshot from the mario that i´ve been working in my spare-time. Now the game has 4.5kb, without any compression.

Offline appel

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« Reply #1 - Posted 2006-01-04 18:49:34 »

Nothing playable yet?

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline jung

Senior Newbie





« Reply #2 - Posted 2006-01-04 18:56:33 »

Yes.. the player is working fine, collision, and the scrolling related stuff... now i´m working in the npc´s and interactivity with the scene. Smiley

[]´s
jung
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Offline jbanes

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« Reply #3 - Posted 2006-01-04 19:17:25 »

Yes.. the player is working fine, collision, and the scrolling related stuff... now i´m working in the npc´s and interactivity with the scene. Smiley

I think appel means, "Nothing for us to play yet?" Which would seem to be an affirmative.

I'm curious, how are you coming up with your 4.5K without compression figure? Are you including the size of the images? What format are you using for images? Have you already included the images for the NPCs, or will those balloon your size? Are there any frames of animation, or is Mario just static?

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Offline kappa
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« Reply #4 - Posted 2006-01-04 19:19:43 »

looking good, but i find it hard to see how your gonna fit the levels in  Wink
but thats the whole fun ok 4k
Offline jung

Senior Newbie





« Reply #5 - Posted 2006-01-04 19:27:32 »

hehe.. i´m trying to get a version more refined before post a playable demo. But yes and no, i´m using the superpackme scheme to get all the resources in the game, but the compression isn´t right yet (i will get a high compression with the png, before pack using the superpackme tool - now i have 3kb with resources, after compression the idea is to get 2kb or less), I have the npcs images, but off course that i won´t be able to put all the npcs from the original mario (from nes), now i´m making all the npcs tests with the interrogation image (just for tests), and the mario has 3 frames (to walk), i´m thinking in put more frames (to jump, crounch, super mario,  and so on), maybe later.  About the leves, i´ve created a (traditional) tile map render, all the maps will be put in (for now) a txt file, with that i could make a big level without increase the size.

erick
Offline jbanes

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« Reply #6 - Posted 2006-01-04 19:47:02 »

But yes and no, i´m using the superpackme scheme to get all the resources in the game, but the compression isn´t right yet (i will get a high compression with the png, before pack using the superpackme tool - now i have 3kb with resources, after compression the idea is to get 2kb or less)

Well, keep in mind that SuperPackME is designed with compression in mind. The packed file will probably be smaller than your PNG, but the inlined hexcode will balloon your class size outside of a JAR file. Once you put it inside a well-compressed JAR file, you should find the SuperPackME method to be smaller.

Quote
I have the npcs images, but off course that i won´t be able to put all the npcs from the original mario (from nes), now i´m making all the npcs tests with the interrogation image (just for tests), and the mario has 3 frames (to walk), i´m thinking in put more frames (to jump, crounch, super mario,  and so on), maybe later.

I highly recommend keeping it to a minimum. Even with maximum SuperPack packing (1 color at 16x16 max), I was only able to get about 21 images into my Defender 4000 game. If you want to fit everything, try to shoot low on the image count. Reducing the number of colors always helps too, but then again, Mario isn't exactly high-color to begin with.  Smiley

Quote
About the leves, i´ve created a (traditional) tile map render, all the maps will be put in (for now) a txt file, with that i could make a big level without increase the size.

I'm not quite sure what your idea is here. A tilemap is guaranteed to use a lot of space for any level of signifcant size. To save space via compression, you can always pack it in a string, but that's only going to save you so much. The most tightly packed form you can use is a binary "on-off" encoding. Now if we assume that you use 64x64 tiles with 10 screens wide at 640x480, we come to about 93 bytes of data.  Since you're unlikey to take that route (since you need both blocks and coin boxes), we can assume that you'll need 2 bits per tile. That doubles our previous figure to ~187 bytes. Each increase in the number of bits will further increase the cost of levels.  Just something to keep in mind.

Good luck! Smiley

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Offline Markus_Persson

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« Reply #7 - Posted 2006-01-04 19:50:05 »

Looks nice!

Why is one coin box slightly offset?

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Offline jung

Senior Newbie





« Reply #8 - Posted 2006-01-04 19:58:26 »

Thankz jbane. Cheesy
Yes Markus... this is the animation test for the npcs (i´m using that box for tests right now :/ ).. heheh
Offline Markus_Persson

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« Reply #9 - Posted 2006-01-04 20:12:34 »

Ahh, ok. It was really bugging me, hehe

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Offline woogley
« Reply #10 - Posted 2006-01-04 20:26:53 »

wow, I didn't even notice the offset coin box o_O;
Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




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« Reply #11 - Posted 2006-01-05 00:38:11 »

Has anyone tried 'run length encoding' to compress images (or tile maps in this case)?  There's alot of empty space in transparent images and tilemaps......
Offline Markus_Persson

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« Reply #12 - Posted 2006-01-05 00:40:42 »

I think it might be better to just rely on the zip compression. The RLE might actually make the zip compression less effective.

This is just speculation, though. I might be wrong. Wink

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Offline jbanes

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Projects: 1


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« Reply #13 - Posted 2006-01-05 03:19:48 »

I think it might be better to just rely on the zip compression. The RLE might actually make the zip compression less effective.

This is just speculation, though. I might be wrong. Wink

That's pretty much been my experience. Every time you double or triple compress data, you actually lose compression you *could* have had. Sometimes you make the data larger. That's why your best bet is to tune the JAR file as well as you possibly can. SuperPackME works so well because it works with the compressor. It first throws out completely unnecessary data (similar to what MP3s do), then realigns it into a more compressable state. Finally, when it's converted to a string, it makes it outright easy for the ZIP compressor to do its job on the data. Repeating patterns, here we come! Smiley

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Offline DonaldEKnuth

Junior Member





« Reply #14 - Posted 2006-01-05 03:48:28 »

jung: Nice game! Really looking forward to playing it! See if you can get some procedural sound in there as well! :-)

SuperPackME: I would never use you as you are not my creation, stupid "pride"..  Undecided (or perhaps plain stupidity without pride)

My 4k 2006 Entry: Sokoban4k
Offline Markus_Persson

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2006-01-05 09:30:42 »

My reason for "never using it" is that it takes away part of what's fun. I want to write the image compression code myself. Cheesy

For larger projects, I have no problems with using external resources and code as long as it's free and the licenses fit, but for 4k it just feels wrong.


And we're really jacking this thread. Wink

Play Minecraft!
Offline jung

Senior Newbie





« Reply #16 - Posted 2006-01-05 15:21:47 »

yes Markus.. I feel that too... but to don´t get much troble right now, this is the fast way to get the things done... i´ve been thinking this week about mario, and after see the first level for the mario (nes).. i´m thinking in create the first level (or maybe the second) identical or very close, working like that , it will be dificulty to make a multi-level game in 4kb... but make a "pseudo-remake" will be fun. heheh.. .i´m thinking to make a other classical clone too, after finish mario.
Offline DonaldEKnuth

Junior Member





« Reply #17 - Posted 2006-01-05 16:19:56 »

Marcus: Well that's part of my philosophy as well (even though I didn't mention it).

jung: Will you have coins in blocks as well? Like in the real Super Mario. Your game looks quite excellent! I didn't have any sounds in my game as I frankly do not know how to create them (I know how to play MIDI and such external resources but not how to do procedural sound). Are you planning on having any sound?

My 4k 2006 Entry: Sokoban4k
Offline jung

Senior Newbie





« Reply #18 - Posted 2006-01-05 16:41:24 »

Hiz Donald... well, i´m trying to get the things little to have some space to put audio (i don´t know how i´ll do that right now, cuz i don´t have much experience with java and audio manipulation anyway :/ ), but my idea right now is: get the 1st level very close to the original and put some audio (the life without music is not the same Cheesy ). About the coins, that doesn´t work right now (but this is not a trouble anyway), i´m working in the npc interaction.

Cheesy
erick
Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #19 - Posted 2006-01-08 22:17:14 »

My reason for "never using it" is that it takes away part of what's fun. I want to write the image compression code myself. Cheesy

For larger projects, I have no problems with using external resources and code as long as it's free and the licenses fit, but for 4k it just feels wrong.

The biggest lie that was ever told was that games were about technology. Wink

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Offline Markus_Persson

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Mojang Specifications


« Reply #20 - Posted 2006-01-09 09:37:07 »

4k game dev competition != game programming

Play Minecraft!
Offline jung

Senior Newbie





« Reply #21 - Posted 2006-01-09 13:45:15 »

yes.. completely different.
Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #22 - Posted 2006-01-09 14:17:55 »

4k game dev competition != game programming

Yes it does. When you go to be judged, you're not judged on your technology. You're judged on how much fun your game is, the quality of your game, and other features related to gameplay. The technology is completely secondary.

Or to put it another way, you could cram the complete game of "Rise of the Robots" into 4K, and you'd still lose because the game stinks. As I said, the greatest lie ever told was that game programming was about technology. Smiley

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Offline Markus_Persson

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« Reply #23 - Posted 2006-01-09 17:13:48 »

You're wrong. =)

I won't bother arguing over it, though. You can keep thinking technology has nothing to do with games. I'm sure all these cool 3d acceleration hardware and massive cpus would've developed just as fast without the games industry to drive it by making end users want it. :-)

Play Minecraft!
Offline jbanes

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"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #24 - Posted 2006-01-09 19:16:45 »

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that technology isn't important. However, it's just a means to an end. The problem occurs when the technology becomes the end rather than the means.

For an example, take Quake III vs. Unreal. Q3 was an adreneline pumping action game that was made possible by impressive visuals. Unreal was a very pretty First Person Demo that allowed you to walk around between levels and look at the pretty lights. It was (in a word) boring. Very pretty. But boring. Boring, boring, boring. I know very few people who finished the game before being bored out of their skulls.

Of course, the moment that Q3 came to challenge Unreal, Epic wised up and released Unreal Tournament - a game that very much emulated the action packed play style of Q3. The result was that UT was the hit success that the original Unreal (and its failed sequel Unreal II) wasn't.

And if you still don't believe that technology is only a means to an end, then allow me to remind you of three letters that epitimize what I'm talking about: [size=10pt]3DO[/size]

3DO proved just how little technology meant when it came to gaming. It trounced the Super Nintendo, the Sega Genesis, the TurboGrafx16, and many of the other contemporary consoles in the technology department. Yet it was a complete and utter failure. The reason given by most owners? The games sucked. I mean, really, really sucked. Very few of the games are considered worth collecting today. Even the popular "Shockwave" game is seen as a rather poor part of gaming history, best to be forgotten.

So it's important to always keep in mind that the purpose of technology is to open up new types of gameplay. Once you try to make the gameplay nothing more than the technology, you lose. But don't take my word for it. Take the word of a certain Markus Persson who stated (and I quote), "Instead of tech-madness like last year, I thought I'd focus on the gameplay this year." I wonder what would ever cause him to make a statement like that? Wink  Grin

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Offline jung

Senior Newbie





« Reply #25 - Posted 2006-01-09 19:35:17 »

Hey.. but with this contest in mind, what´s the main focus in the development? i mean, about what the judges will see in one of each entry, technology or fun, or a mix, or one peace of each part? i´m with jbanes about the technology, he´s right (that´s what a i think too), but in a contest like that it´s important to analisy the tech side. Some friends after see some entrys in this contest, say: "how.. the graphics is weird", but the tech behind the weird graphics is impressive, and in the end of contest, don´t get success :/ . Well... the 4k development isn´t only about when we play the finished game, we get: "wow, this is fun"... but about the hack side, to get something done with a couple of lines, to get a cool side compression with resources and code, to get some cool algorithms working fine, and so on.
Offline Malohkan

Senior Member




while (true) System.out.println("WOO!!!!");


« Reply #26 - Posted 2006-01-09 21:08:05 »

jbanes has a point.  I've seen games come out, such as Perfect Dark Zero for the XBox 360, and I played it.  After a couple hours I realized, "ok, the graphics are amazing, yes this technology is super powerful... but I don't care anymore because this is isn't even as fun as Doom II."

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Offline Orangy Tang

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« Reply #27 - Posted 2006-01-09 22:17:46 »

For an example, take Quake III vs. Unreal. Q3 was an adreneline pumping action game that was made possible by impressive visuals. Unreal was a very pretty First Person Demo that allowed you to walk around between levels and look at the pretty lights. It was (in a word) boring. Very pretty. But boring. Boring, boring, boring. I know very few people who finished the game before being bored out of their skulls.

Of course, the moment that Q3 came to challenge Unreal, Epic wised up and released Unreal Tournament - a game that very much emulated the action packed play style of Q3. The result was that UT was the hit success that the original Unreal (and its failed sequel Unreal II) wasn't.
Your history is a little off. Unreal was pitched against Q2 (and at about the same time) and promised nicer visuals and better AI. Unfortunately as you say the single player sucked hard.

Fortunately the multiplayer was actually not bad, if a little less action packed than Q2, but most importantly it was the first game to have proper deathmatch bots (I believe one of their programmers produced one of the earliest bots for Q1 as a mod). Both Q3 and UT were announced to be deathmatch-only at about the same time, and were released at nearly the same time. UTs multiplayer was actually not changed too much other than having the levels and weapons tightened up somewhat.

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Offline f.l.x

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« Reply #28 - Posted 2006-01-09 22:20:24 »

back on topic sirs, or new thread  Wink

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Offline kappa
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« Reply #29 - Posted 2006-01-09 22:25:43 »

sorry to disagree but i must, unreal 1 single player imo wasn't really that bad, i thought the games atmosphere was brillant at the time, the scripted scenes were very nicely done. then again i prefer quake 2 over quake 3.  Grin but thats just my opinion.

sorry about the topic hijack, but yes really must get back or these posts should be moved into a seperate one  Smiley
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