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  Greedy music producers to shut down tab sites  (Read 6350 times)
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Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 171
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #30 - Posted 2005-12-21 09:31:16 »

Quote
@Kev - I don't think that there's any doubt that the lyrics are their IP & they have the right to have unlicenced sites taken down.  It's just that it seems counterproductive.  As I do buy my music legally, I'd stop bitching, if all CDs came with lyrics - but they don't.  The good news is that often artists with decent lyrics often do get them included.  I'm always so pleased when thats the case Smiley

But thats exactly the point.

1) There are people (even on this thread) that think its not their IP and its not stealing.

2) When a CD doesn't come with lyrics its because the person who owns the IP has decided that they arn't giving you the written word (or the right to republish it) - they're giving you a copy of the track (admittedly you're paying for it). Yet again, its there right to package the IP however they choose to. When you realease a game, you don't have to release the source. Thats your choice.

As to the idea of bitching, complaining and making arguments based on "ah but it'd be better for you if you did it this way" to gets things changed, I think thats extremely naive (and I'd know, I'm naive in the extreme Wink). The only thing that would make anyone in this sort of industry make any changes is money, and the only way the masses can effect that is to <b>not buy the product that don't conform to your ideal</b>.

And yes, I know "if you don't like it, don't buy it" isn't a very good argument - but its the only one that would actually have any effect.

Kev

Offline DrBizzar0

Junior Member




Raj raj!


« Reply #31 - Posted 2005-12-21 11:27:50 »

Can you really separate the lyrics from the music and still claim copyright? I think it's the combination that makes the art. Anyway here in sweden text has to live up to a certain standard, called "Verkshöjd" (can't think of a good translation), for it to be copyright protected. Don't know who decides if something is good enough, but I would guess it's decided in a court of law if somebody questions a copyright claim. Thinking of how stupid, trite and banal the lyrics of most songs are I wouldn't aprove many lyrics if I were to decide Wink
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #32 - Posted 2005-12-21 12:12:35 »

1) There are people (even on this thread) that think its not their IP and its not stealing.

2) When a CD doesn't come with lyrics its because the person who owns the IP has decided that they arn't giving you the written word

I disagree simply because what you are describing in most cases IMO isn't even IP. In modern legal practice, IP isn't "any random thought I happen to have one day and right down", it has to be more substantial than that; in the case of lyrics to a song, that's not (IMHO) really IP - something that people sing along to and hear each other singing and so sing themselves, that's not what IP is really about.

*If* you fervently believe that it is, you are walking fast in the direction of totalitarian control of language itself. This is of huge benefit to someone (whoever does the owning), but is in every way imaginable counter to civilization and humanity. Obviously, it's the way that most record companies knowingly want to go (as has Microsoft), because its more profitable than anything else and their job is to "make most profit possible for shareholders".

That doesn't make it something you should support, irrespective of what the law says today.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
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Offline Ask_Hjorth_Larsen

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #33 - Posted 2005-12-21 12:46:36 »

Quote
1) There are people (even on this thread) that think its not their IP and its not stealing.

I don't know whether this refers directly to my earlier comment, which states that copying data doesn't qualify as stealing. If this is so, I would like to clarify my point. I was not stating in any way that copying copyrighted stuff is okay, or whether it should be legal. But as everyone can see, stealing physical stuff from a person deprives this person of property, whereas copying data does not - it may be argued that the act deprives the owner of the profits otherwise obtained from sales, but since the product would probably not have been bought in the first place (seeing as the person who copied the data over and over again couldn't afford it in the first place), this is a dangerous assumption.

If someone copied 1000 credits' worth of my copyrighted stuff, I would still be less outraged than if finding 100 credits missing from my pocket.
Offline kevglass

JGO Kernel


Medals: 171
Projects: 23
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #34 - Posted 2005-12-21 12:56:39 »

One more time, just for old times sake huh? I'm not saying its right, I'm not even saying I agree with the practice. Argueing what is and isn't IP is also pointless then since thats "modern legal practice" and we're suddenly worrying about "civilisation and humanity". The point is the thing that is being distributed isn't owned by the people distributing it - and ownership is claimed by someone else. Claiming someone is "totalitarian" because they believe in the concept of ownership is just a idealist's way out of the real world.

Quote
Quote
1) There are people (even on this thread) that think its not their IP and its not stealing.
I don't know whether this refers directly to my earlier comment, which states that copying data doesn't qualify as stealing. If this is so, I would like to clarify my point. I was not stating in any way that copying copyrighted stuff is okay, or whether it should be legal. But as everyone can see, stealing physical stuff from a person deprives this person of property, whereas copying data does not - it may be argued that the act deprives the owner of the profits otherwise obtained from sales, but since the product would probably not have been bought in the first place (seeing as the person who copied the data over and over again couldn't afford it in the first place), this is a dangerous assumption.

If someone copied 1000 credits' worth of my copyrighted stuff, I would still be less outraged than if finding 100 credits missing from my pocket.

For reference, no it wasn't aimed at you. However, whether you personally would be more or less outraged by something doesn't change whether its stealing or not stealing? or does it? IMO, stealing doesn't mean taking physical property, it means taking something that isn't yours - as everyone can see - copying copyright material (in whatever form) is doing.

I'm also quite surprised that you'd more outraged at losing 100 credits rather than 1000 credits - no matter what the case. Wink You could easily by a new Mk3 for that Smiley

Kev


Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 3
Projects: 1
Exp: 14 years


Luke...END OF LINE


« Reply #35 - Posted 2005-12-21 15:12:13 »

To be completely clear here, I agree that tab sites are harmful.  In my previous post I jumped the gun a bit and thought this was about "fan sites" posting the lyrics. (I know, I know...RTFA).

I agree with Kev and Jeff that we have to protect an artitst's property, no argument there.  Just would find it silly to hammer fans for such activity as it really amounts to "free" promotion right? 

This whole discussions really makes you think.  If I hear a song on the radio and sing it in public, am I in violation of copyright infringement?

-Chris

(P.S. I know the answer Smiley )

Offline CaptainJester

JGO Knight


Medals: 12
Projects: 2
Exp: 14 years


Make it work; make it better.


« Reply #36 - Posted 2005-12-21 19:09:04 »

I didn't  start this thread to say that the MI didn't own the rights to this material or that they had the right to shut down tab sites.  I am saying that they are greedy.  And it is a load of bull that they are concerned for the artists.  They are concerned with lining their pockets.  As business people, sure they want to make money, but the appearance of good customer relations will endear people to you and make them more willing to part with their hard earned dollar to purchase music products.

From my perspective, they will be losing money.  For me, playing guitar is a hobby.  I have other hobbies that are more important to me, but I still enjoy trying to learn.  So I will go to a site like http://www.puretracks.com and purchase the music I would like to learn.  I in fact spent $21 and put together a CD with 16 songs on it.  Then I will find the tabs and try to learn.  Without the tab sites, I would have to spend in excess of $70 more dollars to get all the sheet music for said songs.  Since not all sheet music is sold as a single, then you have to by a book with it for $20-$25.  With that in mind I would have to spend $120 or more to get everything for all those songs.  Since guitar is such a minor hobby and being married with kids and some debt, I cannot afford to spend that extra $100 for the sheet music.  So now I won't even spend my initial $21 because I won't be able afford to get the sheet music.

How is what the tab sites do any different than what we do as game programmer?  We put out tutorials on how to write Pong or Tetris or Asteroids or Space Invaders.  While the code is ours, the ideas and concepts are not.  We are not making money off these tutorials.  All we are trying to do is teach people.

Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #37 - Posted 2005-12-21 20:39:30 »

[....]
As to the idea of bitching, complaining and making arguments based on "ah but it'd be better for you if you did it this way" to gets things changed, I think thats extremely naive (and I'd know, I'm naive in the extreme Wink). The only thing that would make anyone in this sort of industry make any changes is money, and the only way the masses can effect that is to <b>not buy the product that don't conform to your ideal</b>.
[....]

3rd party recommendations have the biggest influence (advertisement is very weak in comparison). For example just because *I* was satisfied with my hoster they got 10+ new customers and these new customers may recommend it to others, which means that the effect is even bigger.

A single opionion can easily result in a difference of thousands of dollars.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Ask_Hjorth_Larsen

Junior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #38 - Posted 2005-12-21 20:41:33 »

Quote
I'm also quite surprised that you'd more outraged at losing 100 credits rather than 1000 credits - no matter what the case. Wink You could easily by a new Mk3 for that Smiley

The person who copied the stuff most likely wouldn't have bought anything in the first place. Heck, he probably doesn't even have 1000 credits, how on earth could I then have lost 1000 credits? Most of that money is imaginary. The actual loss of sales is extremely difficult to estimate, but I bet it corresponds to much less than 100 credits on average, not even enough for a Spice Silo. Smiley
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