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Offline woogley
« Reply #30 - Posted 2005-12-09 15:28:41 »

hmmm... how bout this. If the game is fullscreen, you can use any resolution you want as long as the user's monitor supports it.

applets and non-fullscreen applications should stick to fitting inside a 1024x768 resolution (so an 800x600 app would be about the max window size that would fit inside the 1024x768 resolution). Especially applets  should follow the 800x600 rule because not only are the limited to screen size, but also browser space.. who knows how many freakin toolbars some people have installed or use AOL that takes up half of the vertical space..
Offline DonaldEKnuth

Junior Devvie





« Reply #31 - Posted 2005-12-09 17:53:48 »

Well most browsers have a "Full screen" mode which could be turned on to get rid of all those toolbars, why not have the same restriction on the size of applets and other non-full screen games? (To make things easier and clear for developers participating in the competition.) Anyway, it would be nice with some direction here so that no unpleasant surprises will occur later on.

My first game will probably not take up that much space, it's 640*320 at the moment (but I guess I will have to compensate some for the java applet message (when run through webstart) and add some vspace on top and bottom as I'm not planning on signing it [so that the paranoid users will try it out as well Smiley ] )

My 4k 2006 Entry: Sokoban4k
Offline woogley
« Reply #32 - Posted 2005-12-09 18:03:47 »

not even half of gamers will know about a browser's fullscreen option or even bother to switch to it.

why are you even messing with applets anyway? They don't really provide any advantage... I would stick with just JFrame if I were you

anyway for people who are wondering: applet and window sizes are not to exceed 800x600 unless you're switching to fullscreen mode. And when I say fullscreen, I don't mean a browser - I mean java's fullscreen.
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Offline DonaldEKnuth

Junior Devvie





« Reply #33 - Posted 2005-12-09 18:25:54 »

not even half of gamers will know about a browser's fullscreen option or even bother to switch to it.
True

why are you even messing with applets anyway? They don't really provide any advantage... I would stick with just JFrame if I were you
I like to have it visible immediately on a web page when I am done, without web start. And I'm fairly new to Java, this is my first applet. So for learning purposes as well I guess. Smiley

anyway for people who are wondering: applet and window sizes are not to exceed 800x600 unless you're switching to fullscreen mode. And when I say fullscreen, I don't mean a browser - I mean java's fullscreen.
Great! Sounds fair, it's good to know. Thank you!

My 4k 2006 Entry: Sokoban4k
Offline Morre

JGO Knight


Medals: 2
Projects: 10


I'm Dragonene on IRC.


« Reply #34 - Posted 2005-12-10 13:33:27 »

Okay. Sounds fair.

Jbanes: I'm using smaller resolution because I like it. Neither of my games so far is fullscreen, and, well, freefall's too high and thin to be fullscreen, and for gumblocks it just seemed right. Dunno. :>

EDIT: Question: woogley, Freefall was made before this ruling and, well... it's playing area is 600 pixels in height, but then there's the window bar-thingy that is always there, plus the webstart "java application" banner. Would you allow that, or do I need to change it?

Offline f.l.x

Senior Devvie


Projects: 3


there is no place like 127.0.0.1


« Reply #35 - Posted 2005-12-10 13:48:28 »

the webstart sandbox bar can be removed in the webstarta cache gui, preferences, advanced, sandbox notification (or something likely) Smiley . It should display an option to remove that bar when clicking on it, to be more user-friendly, well, maybe it's the next step after removing the scary confirmation dialog  Tongue

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Offline woogley
« Reply #36 - Posted 2005-12-10 16:21:47 »

Morre, if it doesn't really affect the gameplay much I would prefer you subtract maybe 50 pixels off. Since yours is a scrolling game it really shouldn't hurt the game. Even better, if you have enough bytes to sign it, players won't have to go through the webstart preferences.
Offline Morre

JGO Knight


Medals: 2
Projects: 10


I'm Dragonene on IRC.


« Reply #37 - Posted 2005-12-11 10:27:59 »

Okay, I'll remove some of it, I guess. The thing is, 600 pixels for drawing is a nice and even number, so I think you should set the limit at how much you can draw, not how big the window is. 640, 480, something like that. I don't really want to sign it though - did that before but I prefer the safe sandbox mode, I think more players might test it that way.

Offline DonaldEKnuth

Junior Devvie





« Reply #38 - Posted 2005-12-13 04:46:33 »

The actual Window size will differ between operating systems, therefore it's not a good way to set the restriction. I have finished my game and it's playing area is 672x480 based on the 800x600 window size limitation above. So please do not change that requirement and lower it now (I think that the screen size restriction should also be stated on the rules page).

I have one question as well. As I created a Java applet, it's jar file size is 4093 bytes. But when i submitted the "resource archive" I had to include a web page to execute it (or am I wrong?) as well, and the size went up >4096 byte. Is that all right? As I see it it's the same as with an webstart application, which also has additional requirements for running it which are not considered to be its file size. If it isn't all right (I can't imagine why) I guess I'll have to make it run through webstart.

(Also I somehow couldn't submit the game using my gmail address, I hade to use my student e-mail.)

My 4k 2006 Entry: Sokoban4k
Offline woogley
« Reply #39 - Posted 2005-12-13 05:23:01 »

I agree that the window size should be stated in the rules page, something I'll edit soon. You're right about the window sizing changing between OSs, but for JFrames I said it needs to fit inside 1024x768 which should be easy to estimate (I'm not going to pull out a ruler or anything), and applets should follow the "no larger than 800x600" rule because they are sized exactly in the browser (I wont measure AppletViewer's window either Wink)

the archive file, whether an executable JAR or ZIP file, must be below the 4096 limit. My best advice is to port it to a JFrame or try another zipping program. Also make sure you use the applet tag - NOT the object tag, that will save you some bytes

as far as gmail failing, not sure whats wrong with that - I don't do any email validation as far as testing if it exists, perhaps you typed it wrong (i.e. you forgot an '@' or '.' character which the script's regex looks for).
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Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #40 - Posted 2005-12-13 06:00:06 »

>Also make sure you use the applet tag - NOT the object tag, that will save you some bytes

Huh

"Webstarted games' code size will be determined with the JAR that Webstart uses to launch the game"

Starting an applet with webstart will gain even more bytes then (Yes, you can just do that.). But this is silly. The rule page doesnt state anywhere that the size of the html file is counted towards your file size. And well, as I said you can just start an applet through jws... and then its magically alright, huh?

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline DonaldEKnuth

Junior Devvie





« Reply #41 - Posted 2005-12-13 06:10:11 »

Quote
as far as gmail failing, not sure whats wrong with that - I don't do any email validation as far as testing if it exists, perhaps you typed it wrong (i.e. you forgot an '@' or '.' character which the script's regex looks for).
Nope I typed it correctly as I always do. My e-mail address is keICEInt.larJIOJWsson@gmail.com without the uppercase letters (I don't want spam). Could it be that your validation script can't handle addresses with dots before the @? (Which are perfectly valid addresses.)

Quote
the archive file, whether an executable JAR or ZIP file, must be below the 4096 limit. My best advice is to port it to a JFrame or try another zipping program. Also make sure you use the applet tag - NOT the object tag, that will save you some bytes
Are you sure that is the way it should be? It seems strange as the jar file size is the only size counted in the case of an webstarted application. What's the difference? If I turn it into an webstarted application I will just have my jar file size counted. Could you please give a motivation for this decision? Should I just make it into an JWS application and resubmit it? In that case only webstarted applications should be allowed as no one would want to create an applet.

Quote
Starting an applet with webstart will gain even more bytes then (Yes, you can just do that.). But this is silly. The rule page doesnt state anywhere that the size of the html file is counted towards your file size. And well, as I said you can just start an applet through jws... and then its magically alright, huh?
I agree. If applets should have an unfair ruling like this it would be better not to have accepted them in the first place.

My 4k 2006 Entry: Sokoban4k
Offline woogley
« Reply #42 - Posted 2005-12-13 06:32:46 »

But this is silly. The rule page doesnt state anywhere that the size of the html file is counted towards your file size. And well, as I said you can just start an applet through jws... and then its magically alright, huh?

a game and all of its resources must be below 4K - it has always been this way. if you choose to ZIP it thats up to you, if your HTML pushes your ZIP over then that's a problem you need to address yourself.

the only difference this year is that I added an exemption for Webstart games. If you can provide a stand-alone JAR that runs and is below 4K but would like to Webstart it *without* having to worry about sandbox, then you may.

Either way the 'archive file' is ALWAYS below 4K, it's always been that way.

It's nothing against applets, it's an extra feature for standalone JAR games that would like to be able to webstart without worry of signing being a road block.

applets are different and have their own advantages and disadvantages: one disadvantage would be that it cant be an executable JAR - that's not a limitation I invented.
Offline Alan_W

JGO Knight


Medals: 8
Projects: 3


Java tames rock!


« Reply #43 - Posted 2005-12-13 06:44:48 »

Quote
as far as gmail failing, not sure whats wrong with that - I don't do any email validation as far as testing if it exists, perhaps you typed it wrong (i.e. you forgot an '@' or '.' character which the script's regex looks for).
Nope I typed it correctly as I always do. My e-mail address is keICEInt.larJIOJWsson@gmail.com without the uppercase letters (I don't want spam). Could it be that your validation script can't handle addresses with dots before the @? (Which are perfectly valid addresses.)

It's definitely the validation script & I reckon it's the '.'s, or possibly a restriction on field size, because my email wasn't accepted either & I had to leave the field blank.  I figure Woogley can contact me here anyway and my email is available on request.

Alan

Time flies like a bird. Fruit flies like a banana.
Offline woogley
« Reply #44 - Posted 2005-12-13 06:46:12 »

yes, just a script bug, next time I'm around the php code I'll just adjust the regex
Offline DonaldEKnuth

Junior Devvie





« Reply #45 - Posted 2005-12-13 07:09:12 »

woogley: So if I have an applet as I do, I can just package it as a webstart application instead and everything is all right? Or must it be a normal application?

My 4k 2006 Entry: Sokoban4k
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #46 - Posted 2005-12-13 07:11:26 »

I'm certainly not the only person who interpreted it like this. The rules doesn't mention anything like that... am I supposed to guess?

If we need to count the jnlp size towards our size then... well, then about everyone gets disquailified (my game, miners, roll, speed, bad sector... etc).

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 221
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #47 - Posted 2005-12-13 12:43:52 »

Surely there is some sort of miscommunication going on here. JNLP files can't really be counting as part of the 4K can they? Or for that matter the HTML that the game jar is embedded on a webpage with?

I mean otherwise all you're encouraging is people making it hard to run their games.

Kev

Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #48 - Posted 2005-12-13 13:09:54 »

I'm certainly not the only person who interpreted it like this. The rules doesn't mention anything like that... am I supposed to guess?

If we need to count the jnlp size towards our size then... well, then about everyone gets disquailified (my game, miners, roll, speed, bad sector... etc).

I agree, NO ONE ELSE has interpreted it this way.  The only size that matters is the jar, however you launch it (jnlp, html) is extra.

Quote
a game and all of its resources must be below 4K - it has always been this way. if you choose to ZIP it thats up to you, if your HTML pushes your ZIP over then that's a problem you need to address yourself.

This is absolutely NOT true.  How many games last year were under 4k when jnlp was included?  Not many.  My applet jar was 4096, html was in addition to that.

Who appointed woogley to be the 4k czar anyway?  You know what happened to the last czar when he pissed off the people......

 Angry
Offline jbanes

JGO Coder


Projects: 1


"Java Games? Incredible! Mr. Incredible, that is!"


« Reply #49 - Posted 2005-12-13 13:14:41 »

I agree, NO ONE ELSE has interpreted it this way.  The only size that matters is the jar, however you launch it (jnlp, html) is extra.

Far more importantly, the HTML and JNLP files never counted toward the 4K in previous years. (I've been in this contest since Year 1.) While I'm an admitted Applet hater, you still needed to clarify this change as the rules don't appear to reflect it. 

Quote
Who appointed woogley to be the 4k czar anyway?

Mlk is the contest organizer, and he bestowed these powers on Woogley. So be nice.  Smiley

Java Game Console Project
Last Journal Entry: 12/17/04
Offline Anon666

Junior Devvie




aka Abuse/AbU5e/TehJumpingJawa


« Reply #50 - Posted 2005-12-13 13:33:47 »

In the past competitions the html in which an applet was embedded did not count toward the app. size.
(though obviously cheating by passing in data or code via a parameter was forbidden)
Offline woogley
« Reply #51 - Posted 2005-12-13 15:14:32 »

I never said JNLP's get counted towards your size, the rules say it's the JAR, where are you seeing that JNLP gets counted?

the only reason HTML gets counted is because it's inside the zip, along with (sometimes) several other files. Am I supposed to unzip the game, cut out the HTML, rezip the game without the HTML, and then validate?

the only workaround I see is to only allow two files in a zip archive: the HTML (which is exempt like the JNLP) and the game archive itself which gets validated - or, not to allow applets at all

thats the only idea I have, I don't see any of you suggesting any. And I'm always open to ideas (which hardly makes me a 'czar,' nonnus... don't overreact to an issue that I'm trying to resolve as fairly as I can)
Offline kevglass

« JGO Spiffy Duke »


Medals: 221
Projects: 24
Exp: 18 years


Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #52 - Posted 2005-12-13 15:22:22 »

Quote
I never said JNLP's get counted towards your size, the rules say it's the JAR, where are you seeing that JNLP gets counted?

Ah ha, thought it had been misread somewhere.

Quote
the only reason HTML gets counted is because it's inside the zip, along with (sometimes) several other files. Am I supposed to unzip the game, cut out the HTML, rezip the game without the HTML, and then validate?

Presumably with an Applet only the actual Applet archive counts not the HTML its embedded in. I mean isn't that a delivery device like JNLP? When submitting an Applet you could submit an archive, main-class and width x height to run at. Then the scripts in the background could generate the appropriate applet HTML page.

Quote
thats the only idea I have, I don't see any of you suggesting any. And I'm always open to ideas (which hardly makes me a 'czar,' nonnus... don't overreact to an issue that I'm trying to resolve as fairly as I can)

Awwww.. we'd been doing so well aswell Smiley Great games coming out. New people coming on board. A nice consolidated central site.

Does sound like a just a misunderstanding on the JNLP front really Smiley

Kev

Offline woogley
« Reply #53 - Posted 2005-12-13 15:34:41 »

I mean isn't that a delivery device like JNLP?

This is true except the format of the data inside the zip that is downloaded isn't always cut-and-dry 1 html file and 1 applet jar. But if it was, then that'd be acceptable to only validate the applet jar inside the zip. maybe that can spcified in the rules

When submitting an Applet you could submit an archive, main-class and width x height to run at. Then the scripts in the background could generate the appropriate applet HTML page.

I think that's brilliant. That would also eliminate any chance of <param> cheating (not that it's ever really been a problem before anyway...)
Offline Morre

JGO Knight


Medals: 2
Projects: 10


I'm Dragonene on IRC.


« Reply #54 - Posted 2005-12-13 16:02:18 »

I agree. The clear difference between JNLP files and HTML files are that the html's are within the archive, and that you'd need to extract them before validation - this doesn't really make sense, since the JAR is to be measured without changing it prior to the validation process. I'd say, that if you provide a link to a HTML site and don't include the HTML file in the JAR, it should be fine. Also, you can include the HTML as long as it fits within the 4k. That way, a HTML counts just as a JNLP - no difference at all.

The idea of submitting main-class, etc. with the game is excellent, because it discourages cheating and generates a site on the fly, making sure that devs don't have to think about the HTML files to start it Smiley

Offline nonnus29

Senior Devvie




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #55 - Posted 2005-12-13 17:24:51 »

Quote
(which hardly makes me a 'czar,' nonnus... don't overreact to an issue that I'm trying to resolve as fairly as I can)

I guess the angry face was a bad choice, as the implied joke was obscured; ie the last czar of russia was assasinated along with his family, we'd NEVER do that to the woogley-ites......  or would we?  Lips Sealed

 Smiley   
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #56 - Posted 2005-12-13 20:15:45 »

Glad to hear that its sorted now. Heh. Smiley

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline DonaldEKnuth

Junior Devvie





« Reply #57 - Posted 2005-12-14 05:42:14 »

My entry is now converted into an application and I have submitted a webstart version instead. Thanks to using KZip I could even sequeeze in 95 levels instead of 78 as before. (My blog entry about the game.)  I didn't need to sign it as it seems to work perfectly anyway. If I were the only entrant creating an applet I guess there isn't any problem anymore.

[append:]
My entry: http://javaunlimited.net/games/view.php?id=58]
Why is there a link saying "Download archive" even though I didn't supply an archive URL? (I guess I could have as the jar-file is there, but I did only supply the webstart URL) I looked at some entries from 2005 and some of them only has a webstart link. If possible could the archive link be updated to hold: http://thisistheurl.com/file/Sokoban4k/Sokoban4k.jar (which is the archive URL) or removed. Sorry if this is due to me missing something during the submit.

My 4k 2006 Entry: Sokoban4k
Offline appel

JGO Wizard


Medals: 69
Projects: 4


I always win!


« Reply #58 - Posted 2005-12-19 03:11:20 »

Yeah, because writing a game in 4k is all about "good programming".  Roll Eyes

I wouldn't say so. You're taking the OOP methodology and throwing it out of the window and breaking/bending other "good programming" practices that you would otherwise use.

I think this contest is all about how much you can do with as little as possible. And you'll be refactoring your code a lot to design things better, more effecient and in fewer lines.

Check out the 4K competition @ www.java4k.com
Check out GAMADU (my own site) @ http://gamadu.com/
Offline Malohkan

Senior Devvie




while (true) System.out.println("WOO!!!!");


« Reply #59 - Posted 2005-12-19 04:27:07 »

Heh...

 Roll Eyes = sarcasm, I do believe.

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