New j4k contest anytime soon?

[Morre]

Hi,
just wondering about plans for a new j4k contest? Java unlimited says this november, which is, well, now

[oNyx]

The usual time span for j4k is (end of) dec to (start of) feb.

Well, it has been like that in the past

[Morre]

I see, excellent

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[kevglass]

Woogley has mentioned on the other forums that it will start again this year on the 1st of Dec.

Kev

[oNyx]

Oh and this time we should use some kind of quickinfo sheet... something like this

[g666]

Can you enter more than 1 game?

[oNyx]

Can you enter more than 1 game?

Sure.

http://javaunlimited.net/games/java4k_2005.php

Count the games from kev

[nonnus29]

I see, excellent

Yes, excellent indeed; I started on my new software renderer last week. 

Muwhahaha!!!!

4k is going to be TIGHT though.... (as if it's wasn't anyway) 

[woogley]

the official launch date, as mentioned by Kev, is December 1st, 2005. The contest will run until February 28th, 2006. Results will be announced in the beginning of March. More info will come in the official thread in the coming weeks.

[Alan_W]

1st December - Great stuff.  Can't wait

::Wonders what nonnus29's software renderer is looking like::
::Glances at own not-ready-yet raycasting code::

Alan

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[nonnus29]

1st December - Great stuff.  Can't wait

::Wonders what nonnus29's software renderer is looking like::
::Glances at own not-ready-yet raycasting code::

Alan

I'm going for polygon rasterization again this time.  Only instead of using Graphics.fillPolygon() as I did in Combat4k, I've implemented my own polygon rasterization routine.  The main problem with using fillPolygon() was z-ordering; I had to sort my polygons.  Also, Color and shading were a problem.  So I'm hopeful I can get flat shading and z buffering and still have room for something game-like.

[Anon666]

I was tempted to go with a voxel engine - with fillRect being hardware accelerated an' all  - The code for such an engine would be tiny!

hmmmmm, VoxelWorms4K ! 

Or maybe VoxelFlightSim4K 

[Alan_W]

@nonnus29 I D/L'd Combat4k   I can see that Z-buffered polygons would help and hope that rasteriser fits in the available space.

@Anon666 Voxels look good to me.  ::Thinks about a voxel space fighter game::

My raycaster fits in 4k!  I reckon Kev's going to have to pull out all the stops to beat it 

Alan

[kevglass]

I don't think I'm going to come close this year!

Remember tho - its about the game, not just the technology!

Kev

[Alan_W]

I don't think I'm going to come close this year!

Ah, modest too.  Last years T4x1 & Balls4k were really good.  It helps that Crazy Taxi on PS2 is one of my favourites.

Remember tho - its about the game, not just the technology!

I know

Alan

[Markus_Persson]

Remember tho - its about the game, not just the technology!

Not for me! :-D

Of course, that'll probably end up costing me the first place again, but that doesn't really matter. =)

[hvor2]

Is there any chance to have another type of contest, that will be tematic limited for example, and not by size? I remember that first time I saw Java 4k, 16k ... contest I had impression that Java is not good to make bigger, more serious games. Unexistence of bigger contest may send a  wrong message about Java. Now  of course, I don't think so, but that was my first tought... So, my question is - why not bigger contest (Java can handle it)? Or I am just not aware of any?

[oNyx]

Those extreme filesize limitations ensure that its a coding competition. It also ensures that you just cant do too much and you also cant gain anything from having a good artist etc. The limitation is totally artificial

And java can of course handle games with tons of content. The problem is that that kind of games take way more time to create whereas 4k takes a couple of days in the worst case (iirc kev made some of his entries in less than 4h).

Well, its pretty tough to cram something game like into 4k... and thats all the contest is about

[nonnus29]

Unexistence of bigger contest may send a  wrong message about Java. Now  of course, I don't think so, but that was my first tought... So, my question is - why not bigger contest (Java can handle it)? Or I am just not aware of any?

The 4k and 16k contests aren't about sending a message, they're about fun, for us the participants. And saying 'gee, how did he/she fit THAT into 4k!?!?! 

There are plenty of other open ended contests around (google of 'omg cup' or check out the contest gamedev just had).  Participate in the contests you like, if you want a different contest, then organize it.

[Alan_W]

Bigger contest? It's the time factor really.  It also depends on how much code reuse you can do.  I wrote SharpShooter16k in about a week, but that was only because I ripped the modelling and collision detection system (greatly simplified of course) from the more complex Storm the Castle game.   Starting from scratch with no experience would have taken months.  I would like to do a bigger game with better graphics (my graphics really suck), but am so pushed for time these days. 

[hvor2]

Those extreme filesize limitations ensure that its a coding competition. It also ensures that you just cant do too much and you also cant gain anything from having a good artist etc. The limitation is totally artificial
... its pretty tough to cram something game like into 4k... and thats all the contest is about

Of course, that is the other side of the story. I like that explanation very much - good art will not help you if you don't know how to code 
And I wasn't talking AGAINST j4k contest, I just wanted to know if there is "bigger" contest (not in value but in size) out there.

[Markus_Persson]

It's possible to make a good game in 4k, but it takes a lot of trickery.

In 16k with an opengl binding, it gets easier, but starts to take a lot of time.

Beyond that, I could just make a proper game instead. (And I am!)

[oNyx]

>I just wanted to know if there is "bigger" contest

Sure. There are like a handfull compos each year. Eg this one:
http://idevgames.com/index.php/contest/omg_info/omg_cup_2005

If you ever intend to participate in one of the bigger ones be sure to read the rules *very* carefully. Some are kinda dodgy... well, when in doubt you can just discuss it here

[nonnus29]

I would like to do a bigger game with better graphics (my graphics really suck), but am so pushed for time these days.

This is another reason I like the 4k; the expectation for gfx is very low so anything you can do is exceptional.  You must be an artist or know one to develope a game with no size restrictions that will impress anyone.

[g666]

Remember tho - its about the game, not just the technology!

Not for me! :-D

Of course, that'll probably end up costing me the first place again, but that doesn't really matter. =)

who did when last years contest?

[Alan_W]

who did when last years contest?

Last Years results

[Markus_Persson]

Huh? I thought that tetris thing won?

If that's the official results, then I'm more than happy. =D
Kev did a really nice job with T4XI.

[jbanes]

Huh? I thought that tetris thing won?

That's probably because you were looking at the name-sorted  "Totals" list rather than the score-sorted "Winners" list. 4K-Tris comes first in name-sorted order.

Also, there were a few hiccups in scoring last year, with the early scores reflecting oddities like a double count for sound and music, when it should have gotten one or the other. It was eventually sorted out.

Still, we'll need to rethink scoring this year to ensure that it's a little less random. Each judge went into the scoring with a different idea of how it should work (regardless of how we all tried to get it to work), making the scores run all over the board. We'll need to discuss how we can improve things. T4xi was still the unquestionable winner, however.

[nonnus29]

Agreed.  There were ALOT of problems last year; the rules and judging criteria were undecided until after the contest was over.

After reviewing last years rules I'd like to see:

1)  jdk 1.5 required,  pack200 is just too good

2)  all entries must be self executing jars; pak200 makes this much less painful

3)  No matter what, somebody set the rules in stone soon so there's not as much confusion

Number 3 is hard because no one actually owns this thing, unless it's jbanes?

[jbanes]

After reviewing last years rules I'd like to see:

1)  jdk 1.5 required,  pack200 is just too good

I agree on 1.5 just because it's the mainstream version at the moment. However, I believe your next requirement defeats the availability of pack200.

2)  all entries must be self executing jars; pak200 makes this much less painful

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pack200 is only for Webstart, isn't it? Last time I did tests, I found that Pack200 JAR files were no longer directly executable. Instead, the file had to be unpacked prior to execution. Thus Pack200ed files really can't count as being under the 4k limit.

3)  No matter what, somebody set the rules in stone soon so there's not as much confusion

Number 3 is hard because no one actually owns this thing, unless it's jbanes?

I'm just a messanger. The real "owner" of the contest has been Mlk. Now the rules were decided by committee last time, but Mlk's decisions were deferred to as the final say.