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  Distributing Sun server-vm  (Read 23264 times)
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Offline princec

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« Reply #30 - Posted 2005-10-24 23:55:20 »

Until that's going to happen, swpalmer's solution sounds like a good deal and very easy to accomplish.

Quote
to ADD a stipulation to the license that if you bundled a private JRE, stripped down or not, that you are required to display a "powered by Java technology" message and logo clearly on your product
I'm totally cool with that except I still run some sort of vague risk of being hassled by lawyers. Not that they will get anything out of me, because I have nothing.

Cas Smiley

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #31 - Posted 2005-10-25 03:38:09 »

Sun's "hang-up" has always been fear of platform fracture.
(Look at the mess in the J2ME space were we allowed that to happen if you want some idea why its a bad thing...)

I'm not familiar with what is going on in J2ME, though I was under the impression that Sun was quite successful in that space.

In any case, my suggested pertained ONLY to private JREs that were not installed as a resource to be shared with the rest of the system.  I.e. it would be forbidden to have The public Java Web Start launcher be aware of it. It woudl be forbidden for a double-clickable jar file to be launched with it.  It would be forbidden for it to be the JRE used for Applets, at least those loaded from the internet in general.  It would be for running aplications controlled entirely by the company that installed it.

It is already legal to install private JREs like that.  JREs that never get used by anything other than one specific application, or perhaps multiple applications from the same vendor.  Sun gets absolutely no credit for it in any way.  No money, no brand awareness.  Sun would be lucky if it was even mentioned in an obscure place like these message boards that the product in question used Java.

You would think that since the private JRE is not going to "contaminate" the system with a non-standard, incompatible JRE, that Sun could meet us half-way and adjust the license so that we give them some free advertising in exchange for the ability to only include the bits of the JRE that we need.

I don't see how anyone looses in that case... Well actually if anyone looses it would probably be the game developer who now has to advertise that the game uses Java with the (unwarranted) stigma that comes with it.  ("Oh, that's just a Java game.  I saw an applet back in 1996 and it sucked, I don't want to play that!")
If the game is any good at all, it's going to be positive for Sun.

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #32 - Posted 2005-10-25 04:59:08 »

Woudl have worked too if anyone had cared enough to pony up the resources to build it.  **sigh**
Hey Jeff man, I've got that damned VM spec sitting here and it runs all my games :/ Why don't you wave Ultratron or Tribal Trouble under some top brass' nose and see if they smell the coffee? You never know they might see the light. I've said that as a product you could flog my mini-VM for $100 each as a "boxed product" to game devs around the world and it'd be a nice little earner with bugger all impact on the rest of J2SE.

Cas Smiley

Im afraid your stripped down VM almost certainly wouldnt pass through the politics of the JSR process., sorry.  Its a pretty delicate balancing act.

And without JCP blessing it can't be called Java.  And to be JCP blessed it needs a TCK, which really was the big hassle.  I could've whipped out the plaform by myself with the clandestine help of a few other inetrested parties, but the TCK is like 10 times the work.




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Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #33 - Posted 2005-10-25 05:35:10 »

Im afraid your stripped down VM almost certainly wouldnt pass through the politics of the JSR process., sorry.  Its a pretty delicate balancing act.

And without JCP blessing it can't be called Java.  And to be JCP blessed it needs a TCK, which really was the big hassle.

It seems that is where some lawyers have got there head stuck up their a--

Who cares what it's called when the name will never see the light of day?  That's the situation we have NOW when we follow the current license to a T.  Private JRE, hidden behind the scenes, with no value to Sun.

I say DON'T call the stripped down version (which I think should be ANYTHING that the developer wants to rip from a typical JRE, not some "blessed" distribution) a JRE.  Make no claims that it is compatible with anything.   Just require use of any files from the JRE to require the product to say "Powered by JavaTM technology a Sun Microsystems innovation"   -- or something equally fluffy that gives Sun and Java some screen time in a positive sense.

Offline princec

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Medals: 282
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« Reply #34 - Posted 2005-10-25 12:09:45 »

Scott speaks wisdom.

And also - why do you think the TCK is so difficult? Or the JCP? The VM I have is simply the 1.4.2 JRE minus classes. The TCK and specs are similarly easy to hack. Just delete anything that is not relevant. That's quite easy to do as well - just run the tests and delete all the ones that fail Wink

Cas Smiley

Offline erikd

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Maximumisness


« Reply #35 - Posted 2005-10-25 12:28:00 »

Quote
just run the tests and delete all the ones that fail
LOL, that's pure genius  Grin

Offline erikd

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Maximumisness


« Reply #36 - Posted 2005-10-25 12:37:40 »

I'm totally with swpalmer here.
Nobody looses and everybody wins. There's absolutely no chance of a fractured java if the license demands that a private JRE is *only* used privately.
The only thing Sun needs to do is change the license accordingly and make the distinction between 'Java' (with standard) and 'powered by Java Technology' (or something similar, pointing to private use of java technology).

Offline kevglass

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Medals: 85
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Coder, Trainee Pixel Artist, Game Reviewer


« Reply #37 - Posted 2005-10-25 12:45:34 »

Quote
The only thing Sun needs to do is change the license accordingly and make the distinction between 'Java' (with standard) and 'powered by Java Technology' (or something similar, pointing to private use of java technology).

Unfortunately as soon a licensing and lawyers become involved simple things become very expensive in terms of resources, time and money. Strange that isn't it?

Kev

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #38 - Posted 2005-10-25 20:35:11 »

Bah. The size of the jre is only a problem for small indie games. The latest jre is 16MB download. Whats the problem of distributing a JRE inside your game dir ?
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

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Hand over your head.


« Reply #39 - Posted 2005-10-25 20:55:41 »

Bah. The size of the jre is only a problem for small indie games. The latest jre is 16MB download. Whats the problem of distributing a JRE inside your game dir ?

... most participating in this thread are the indies, writing small games.

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Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #40 - Posted 2005-10-25 23:15:19 »

... most participating in this thread are the indies, writing small games.

Indies i agree, the writing small games statement is yours.



Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #41 - Posted 2005-10-25 23:23:27 »

Scott speaks wisdom.

And also - why do you think the TCK is so difficult? Or the JCP? The VM I have is simply the 1.4.2 JRE minus classes. The TCK and specs are similarly easy to hack. Just delete anything that is not relevant. That's quite easy to do as well - just run the tests and delete all the ones that fail Wink

Cas Smiley

Uhuh.... riiiiight.

YOU get that one past the JCP executive committee.

No offense, but if you havent done it, your talking out your ass.

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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #42 - Posted 2005-10-25 23:25:20 »

Well here's someone for you to talk to who could do what you want...

jonnathan.schwartz@sun.com

Saying all this to me is a wate of breath because whether I agree or not I dont have the power to make those kinds of chnages in how we do things.

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Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

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Medals: 605
Projects: 4
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Hand over your head.


« Reply #43 - Posted 2005-10-25 23:27:45 »

Quote
Indies i agree, the writing small games statement is yours.

PrinceC, Vorax, KevGlass, erikd and myself.
...
small games.


Back on topic: as Sun isn't going to change the license for us (not surprising, ofourse) I think the only option is MoleBox.

I don't think there is more to say Undecided

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Offline Timedancer

Senior Newbie




Flower power!


« Reply #44 - Posted 2005-10-25 23:59:08 »

All Sun needed to do was to ADD a stipulation to the license that if you bundled a private JRE, stripped down or not, that you are required to display a "powered by Java technology" message and logo clearly on your product.  That would start to put a much more positive spin on Java, particularly as a gaming platform.  Now Cas' has gone and done the opposite (removing mention of Java) and obviously that only hurts Sun's efforts.  Time to wake up, Sun!


Cas’s efforts seem pretty minimal compared to the damage Sun has done to the Java brand itself. Most of my non-technical friends think Java = Javascript, so don’t understand any potential advantages Java may have. Now Sun have repeated the error with the “Java Desktop”, which doesn’t run Java apps. Seems to me the biggest confusion about the “Java message” is coming from Sun.

I’ve been happy with the development advantages of using Java for my game. But now that its reaching a distribution stage, Java seems more of an obstacle than a solution. In the Enterprise space Sun have done a good job of promoting Java positives. But in the personal computer space, I can only think of negatives.

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #45 - Posted 2005-10-26 00:22:45 »

Quote
Indies i agree, the writing small games statement is yours.

PrinceC, Vorax, KevGlass, erikd and myself.
...
small games.

What i wanted to say is that nobody is forcing you to do small sized games.

I see indie games with more than 100MB and very good quality games. The difference between an indie developer and a comercial developer is like the difference between an independent serie B movie creator - sometimes paying the movie from his own pockets -  and someone working for a big company with a very large budget.

Being an inide game creator doen't mean you have to work alone either. You join your efforts and work together as a team, divide your work, and create more ambitious games.

It's not that Sun hates or despises indie gamers but they cannot suport every single isolated person for whom 16 extra megabytes in their game is a problem. There is much indie java game developers can do for themselves before puting the blames on Sun.
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

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Medals: 605
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Hand over your head.


« Reply #46 - Posted 2005-10-26 01:07:31 »

56k modems are 50% of the market, bla bla bla. Have you read this thread at all?


Quote
You join your efforts and work together as a team, divide your work, and create more ambitious games.

These devs joining up is just not realistic. They are all working on their own kind of games, all have other jobs too. Weeks can go by without working on a game. It seems you have no clue what you're talking about. Really.

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Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #47 - Posted 2005-10-26 05:59:07 »

Well here's someone for you to talk to who could do what you want...

jonnathan.schwartz@sun.com

Saying all this to me is a wate of breath because whether I agree or not I dont have the power to make those kinds of chnages in how we do things.

Just for kicks, Jeff, do you agree?  What is your personal opinion?

Cas', Erik, etc.. shall we prepare a letter to Mr. Shwartz?  If we do, I think it would be best to expand the scope to make it clear that it doesn't apply to just games, but any time a private RJE is embedded.

Jeff, is there anything the GTG can do to give any proposal that we make a bit of a boost?  I'm assuming that if we get any attention at all, someone inside of Sun is going to ask someone else inside of Sun for some opinions and confirmation that our proposal is worth a second look.  Can the GTG give us some backup in that regard?

Has something like this already been discussed and dismissed inside of Sun, or would we actually have a real chance to get some new license terms for lightweight use of Java technology?

Offline c_lilian

Senior Member


Projects: 1


Java games will probably rock someday...


« Reply #48 - Posted 2005-10-26 07:57:35 »

Not that it will count much, but I'm with you on that topic... so where do I sign ?

We could start a new survey here, just to see who's with us and to gather forces... then send THE email to mr Schwartz with a link to the survey...
May be add a blog on java.net (who's got an account ?) and an open letter to javalobby...

My 2eurocents

Lilian

Offline elias

Senior Member





« Reply #49 - Posted 2005-10-26 08:31:31 »

I'd like to help out in this matter too, . However, if we agree to apply some pressure to sun, we should think about what exactly it is we want. Do we want a simple license change for the JRE? An official JCP approved games JRE? Something else? My personal favorite is something like swpalmer's proposal, loosening up the license for purely private JREs, possibly in exchange for some java publicity (we still have the java logo on the website and in our game).

 - elias

Offline princec

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Medals: 282
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« Reply #50 - Posted 2005-10-26 10:57:05 »

Jeff, I was being facetious. Seems my ass can tell jokes! Haha Smiley It does go to show that a bit of lateral thinking can achieve an awful lot. In most walks of life it just needs some kind of management to stop a good idea from coming to fruition.

I'm with Elias and Scott here that we just need to get a variation on the license terms. Such a variation needs to be very cunningly worded to prevent, say, Microsoft from just borrowing the VM and distributing it. (Hypothetical I know but you see the scope of the problem). I was in favour of actually paying for a license, but at a reasonable price (ie. priced to compete with Jet, for example).

Cas Smiley

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #51 - Posted 2005-10-26 12:20:45 »

Quote from: Riven
56k modems are 50% of the market, bla bla bla. Have you read this thread at all?

I get market figures from forum threads ? Besides i usaly see game developers like EA concerned so much with market figures not indie game developers. I hope that doing indie games is something you do mostly for fun, otherwise it would be a bit ... dumb.

Quote from: Riven
These devs joining up is just not realistic. They are all working on their own kind of games, all have other jobs too. Weeks can go by without working on a game. It seems you have no clue what you're talking about. Really.

If you are too scared to work with a team thats your problem. Don't try to generalize that into the bigger picture. The argument you just made is completely irrational. Working with a team will help indie game developers solve their problems with free time not make it worst. I have participated in several game projects with people who have other jobs, and know a lot other people who solve their time problems by working as a team. I sugest you try to do this yourself and see how it works.
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

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Hand over your head.


« Reply #52 - Posted 2005-10-26 13:10:57 »

I'd like to help out in this matter too, . However, if we agree to apply some pressure to sun, we should think about what exactly it is we want.

I doubt we, as a community, can apply enough pressure to Sun. I recall ChrisM speaking about the financial side of this. They are much more likely to focus on for example the military, because that can make them billions of dollars. The gaming-community as it is now, simply isn't worth it, financially.

Do we want a simple license change for the JRE? An official JCP approved games JRE? Something else? My personal favorite is something like swpalmer's proposal, loosening up the license for purely private JREs, possibly in exchange for some java publicity (we still have the java logo on the website and in our game).

JCP will take multiple years, and requires votes from the big companies. I wuold give it a tiny chance it would succeed. And as Cas said, creating a new license for private JREs will cost Sun probably more than a good small game, showing the java-logo, will make them (marketing). Only big games receive enough attention to matter for Sun to show off the Java brand, but for big games those extra 15MB don't really matter...

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Offline Vorax

Senior Member


Projects: 1


System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #53 - Posted 2005-10-30 18:02:43 »

I wouldn't mind paying some coin and displaying a "Java Powered" logo in the game if I was allowed to strip the crud from an embedded JRE.  If a petition or letter is composed, I'll happily sign it.

Offline Vorax

Senior Member


Projects: 1


System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #54 - Posted 2005-10-30 18:10:20 »

I get market figures from forum threads ? Besides i usaly see game developers like EA concerned so much with market figures not indie game developers. I hope that doing indie games is something you do mostly for fun, otherwise it would be a bit ... dumb.

It can also be something you do to make money.  There are indie developers out there who do this full time with only 1 or 2 people and very successfully.  I am doing it partially for fun, but I want to be able to reach a broad audience as well.... trying to have fun and make money at the same time, isn't something I would call dumb.... trying to do it with the JRE licensing issues might be though Smiley

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #55 - Posted 2005-10-30 22:41:53 »

.... trying to do it with the JRE licensing issues might be though Smiley

Exactly don't bother. SUN is not going to make a small jre just for like you said "I am doing it partially for fun, but I want to be able to reach a broad audience as well" just for fun.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #56 - Posted 2005-10-30 22:48:31 »

SUN is not going to make a small jre just for like you said "I am doing it partially for fun, but I want to be able to reach a broad audience as well" just for fun.

We aren't asking Sun to make any new JRE. We are asking for a very small change in the wording of the license that applies only to bundled, private JREs.  We don't see how Sun has anything to lose, and they have some gain in terms of marketing Java.  Surely it won't take that much money or very long for a Sun lawyer to draw up a revised license if Sun is willing to do it.  Why they would be unwilling is somewhat of a mystery.  Perhaps they are so caught up in bureaucracy that they are unaware of simple things can be if you apply a little common sense.

Offline erikd

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Medals: 15
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Maximumisness


« Reply #57 - Posted 2005-10-31 02:20:02 »

We should come up with a definition of 'private JRE' first, before writing any letter. Otherwise we will get a useless reply back which mentions "TCK" and "forking", which is of course absolutely not relevant as long as it's perfectly clear what we're talking about.
What about the definition "A private JRE is a JRE which may be altered from the official distribution, but which can not be launched by any other application than the application which includes it."?
This has some consequences: There should be absolutely no java.exe or javaw.exe, so they have to be replaced by an executable which will launch the JVM with all the java arguments and main-class etc. hardcoded in it for the application/game alone (or moleboxed or whatever).
More suggestions?

I personally think that while this license change is not the perfect solution, it's the most realistic solution of real problems in an imperfect world (where of course everybody would have the latest and greatest JRE by default). I don't think going for the ideal solution is very realistic...

Maybe we should also write this letter in public.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #58 - Posted 2005-10-31 03:29:04 »

Perhaps the term "embedded, private JRE" should be used.

Excluding java.exe is not really required so long as it is not placed in the default PATH and remains generally inaccessible outside of launching the application(s) that use it as an embedded VM.   We should look at the current Sun license which, I think, does mention rules about embedding the JRE, and use the same terms that it currently uses.

The browser plugins must also not use the JRE that is embedded.

The only way to alter the JRE will be to modify any files that are already allowed to be modified in the current license, and to exclude whole files from the JRE or from the contents of any archive file (JAR) within the JRE.  Perhaps the "any archive file" can be restricted to "rt.jar".  New files must be added through the means already available via the current license (e.g. installed to the extensions folder, or otherwise added to the classpath at launch time)

The JRE will not be visible to any "public" install of Java webstart or any browsers and will therefore not impact the user experience.  Surely we can get someone at Sun to realize that a private embedded JRE only accessible to a specific application only needs the files and classes that are actually possible to access via that application and that any other files are just taking up space for absolutely no good reason.   Though getting common sense past a team of lawyers can no-doubt be challenging.

Offline erikd

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Maximumisness


« Reply #59 - Posted 2005-10-31 09:48:19 »

Quote
Excluding java.exe is not really required so long as it is not placed in the default PATH and remains generally inaccessible outside of launching the application(s) that use it as an embedded VM.

It's just a safety measure to prevent users from (accidently) using the embedded JRE for something else. It's so easy to point eclipse or JWS to an embedded JRE, or even put it in the path by accident, and that *will* happen! And then you've opened up the path to forking and this is something nobody wants.
I think it's reasonable and sensible to have the requirement that an embedded, modified JRE cannot be used for something else, ever.

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