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  Distributing Sun server-vm  (Read 23882 times)
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Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #90 - Posted 2005-11-01 20:13:56 »

Based on Sun's track record I don't agree that they have a clue about how they should do their publicity.

Sure go tell them that maybe they hire you as their publicity man. Are you even one of their employes ?
I'm referring not to Sun marketing in total, but to the area that affects end users of games and such.  I'm referring to the applet disaster - where Sun appeared to have a tremendous advantage and then lost to technologies such as Flash.  The same sort of thing is happening in the area of small downloadable games, where Java should also have a great advantage.  Creating awareness among the end user of such things could help drive sales of Java enabled devices such as mobile phones, so the idea that this is totally irrelevant to Sun seems extreme.

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Do you know of every possible interest Sun has in the market and every investement they have ? If not Roll Eyes then this is pointless. They don't have a JRE just for indie games in the < 5Mb area. They have a runtime for mobiles and perhaps thats what you should be using no ?
I'm not attempting to suggest marketing strategies for all areas of Sun.  I'm not talking about anything that has to do directly with JME.  This thread is NOT about creating a JRE just for indie games.  It's about a modification to the license that would allow a very particular case of omitting parts of the standard JRE,leaving the remain parts unmodified.  This is about anything that creates work for Sun outside of thinking up some new license terms.  This isn't about marketing J2EE or any particular aspect of Java.  It is simply an idea to enable more practical distribution methods for embedded VMs in a manner that should not harm the Java brand and could potentially give Java greater exposure in the gaming market.  The idea does not apply to cases where the embedded Java would be used to run arbitrary content, such as games on mobile devices or set-top boxes, where the JRE is built-in already.  Since the PC doesn't have a built-in JRE and we already are allowed to embed our on copy for exclusive use of our own application, I think this creates a special case.

If there was zero interest from Sun in the gaming market they would not have agreed to form the GTG.  The fact that Sun is focusing on aspects for gaming that offer more direct commercial value to them makes perfect sense.  But like it or not Java has a questionable reputation among casual users, if they are aware of it at all.  The idea behind the license change would be to increase awareness amoung the people that would be benefiting from java technology without normally being aware.  There is hope in that some people are aware that Java on a mobile phone means that they can download games for the phone.   Most game devs for PCs don't seem to think Java is capable or worth using.  If there appeared to be more people using Java in PC games, simply because the game maker was *required* to display a "powered by java" message as compensation for being allowed to embed a stripped down JRE, then maybe it would slowly work in Sun's favor to get more attention to Java.
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So, no, I'm not kidding. Sun has already started almost exactly the same campaign with applets.  Who uses applets anymore?  Sun doesn't care - it costs them ZERO, so the return on the investment is going to be acceptable no matter what.

We are not discussing applets here. This is about the jre that is suposed to be downloaded by all the people interested in using java technology.

Above we were discussing the value of displaying a "powered by Java" message.  I used the applet case to demonstrate that Sun already does this for some things.  We are NOT taking about a JRE that is supposed to be downloaded by all the people interested in using Java technology - I don't know where you are getting that idea.

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #91 - Posted 2005-11-01 21:04:20 »

I'm not attempting to suggest marketing strategies for all areas of Sun.

You realize that if they allow people to omit files from the jre it will affect everyone who use the jre don't you ?

It's about a modification to the license that would allow a very particular case of omitting parts of the standard JRE,leaving the remain parts unmodified.

You mean taking almost everything out. The remaining part is javaw and a couple classes that go into java util and java lang classes. Why don't you want to use the JME again ?

It is simply an idea to enable more practical distribution methods for embedded VMs in a manner that should not harm the Java brand and could potentially give Java greater exposure in the gaming market.

Theres a reason why Sun don't allow other people to mess and redistribute their jre. You see when shit happens its them that people will criticise and try to get compensation not from the guy who screwed up with the installation and isn't worth blaming. I don't call this good publicity at all.

The idea does not apply to cases where the embedded Java would be used to run arbitrary content, such as games on mobile devices or set-top boxes, where the JRE is built-in already.

Yes and then people would start screwing up by messing with jre files and you would see a lot of java applications wearing the Java logo crashing more than windows applications.

Heres a very simple solution. When you want to sell your indie game tell your buyers its a java game that runs with version X.Y or bigger and give them the link to sun for them to download and install the jre.

It's that easy. It takes about half an hour to download the jre from sun with a modem and they only do it once so this isn't a problem. If they like the screenshots and the description of your game a modem will not be a problem.

If you just want to hide any traces of java from your games then there are much better solutions. Use Jet or whatever its called then strip/obfuscate your executable.

If there was zero interest from Sun in the gaming market they would not have agreed to form the GTG.

Ok its 0.1 interest  then. Not exactly Microsoft games division but its better than nothing.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #92 - Posted 2005-11-01 21:58:42 »

I'm not attempting to suggest marketing strategies for all areas of Sun.
You realize that if they allow people to omit files from the jre it will affect everyone who use the jre don't you ?

It will only effect those to which that particular aspect of the license applies of course.  Those that are distributing their own embedded JRE that can't be accessed outside of their product --- yes that DOES include a lot of people.  But it does not include distributions of the JRE such as those found in mobile device or bundled with a computer system - any case where the JRE is accessible outside of a specific application is specifically excluded.  How many times does this need to be repeated?

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It's about a modification to the license that would allow a very particular case of omitting parts of the standard JRE,leaving the remain parts unmodified.

You mean taking almost everything out. The remaining part is javaw and a couple classes that go into java util and java lang classes. Why don't you want to use the JME again ?

Because JME is not the same thing at all.  It would mean ADDing things to JME. Possibly improving performance of JME etc.  JME does not include the HotSpot JVM for example.  JME is a totally different thing. It is meant as a shared VM on resource constrained devices.  I'm not talking about a shared VM.  That's the whole point.   The fact that the JRE will not be shared is what enables the feasibility of chopping up the contents without effecting "compatibility".  This is about a very small and, if done correctly, undetectable (outside of reduced download times and distribution size), modification to the existing practices of many programs that use Java already.

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It is simply an idea to enable more practical distribution methods for embedded VMs in a manner that should not harm the Java brand and could potentially give Java greater exposure in the gaming market.

Theres a reason why Sun don't allow other people to mess and redistribute their jre. You see when shit happens its them that people will criticise and try to get compensation not from the guy who screwed up with the installation and isn't worth blaming. I don't call this good publicity at all.

What "installation" Huh  This is an embedded JRE we are talking about.  Something that is inaccessible to anything other than a specific application.  It is 100% compatible with the standard JRE in the context of that application because it IS the standard JRE as far as that application is concerned, seeing as the only thing that could be excluded would be parts that the application did not ever use and is therefore unaware of.

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The idea does not apply to cases where the embedded Java would be used to run arbitrary content, such as games on mobile devices or set-top boxes, where the JRE is built-in already.

Yes and then people would start screwing up by messing with jre files and you would see a lot of java applications wearing the Java logo crashing more than windows applications.

Pure speculation on your part.  Does AlienFlux crash more?  you seem to be under the impression that there is something tricky to this. There is not.  Don't include the bits that your application can't possibly ever use.  That's all there is to it.  It only gets even remotely tricky (i.e. not hard at all) when you start doing reflection to load classes from the standard JRE, or where the JRE itself might do this.  But that is manageable.

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Heres a very simple solution. When you want to sell your indie game tell your buyers its a java game that runs with version X.Y or bigger and give them the link to sun for them to download and install the jre.

It's that easy. It takes about half an hour to download the jre from sun with a modem and they only do it once so this isn't a problem. If they like the screenshots and the description of your game a modem will not be a problem.

It is simpler (and more reliable) than that if you just use Web Start.  But that would be missing the point (again).

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If you just want to hide any traces of java from your games then there are much better solutions. Use Jet or whatever its called then strip/obfuscate your executable.

Where do you come up with this nonsense?  I specifically made it a requirement that you MUST prominently announce the use of Java technology.  I repeated it several times.  You were arguing about it having any marketing value earlier.  Now you are just making things up to argue about and aren't following the thread at all.

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Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #93 - Posted 2005-11-01 23:43:54 »

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Because JME is not the same thing at all.  It would mean ADDing things to JME. Possibly improving performance of JME etc.  JME does not include the HotSpot JVM for example.

So improve it yourself. Adding things is not a problem, removing things is. You should be asking them to add things to the JME not removing things from the JRE. For small games you won't even notice the JIT is not there. For bigger games 16MB won't even be a problem. So you don't have a problem in any case.

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It is simply an idea to enable more practical distribution methods for embedded VMs in a manner that should not harm the Java brand and could potentially give Java greater exposure in the gaming market.

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What "installation" Huh  This is an embedded JRE we are talking about.  Something that is inaccessible to anything other than a specific application.  It is 100% compatible with the standard JRE in the context of that application because it IS the standard JRE as far as that application is concerned, seeing as the only thing that could be excluded would be parts that the application did not ever use and is therefore unaware of.

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Pure speculation on your part.  Does AlienFlux crash more?  you seem to be under the impression that there is something tricky to this. There is not.  Don't include the bits that your application can't possibly ever use.  That's all there is to it.  It only gets even remotely tricky (i.e. not hard at all) when you start doing reflection to load classes from the standard JRE, or where the JRE itself might do this.  But that is manageable.

You still don't get it right ?

Geez where should i start

First Alien Flux isn't a statistic.

Second things don't work that way in the real world. People would find ways to abuse it. If you had a better understanding of how the market works you would understand what im saying.

Third a company like Sun don't just make decisions based on forum discussions and browsing indie game sites. They have marketing analists and lots of other paid employes who can help them make good decisions and still the market is very unpredictable.

Allowing people to freely decide what the JRE is, be it embeded in a program or not, would be a disaster and would make Sun loose control of their own technology and people loose confidence on it with all the problems that would happen.

Unless you have a very good understanding of how Suns market works, something that Suns employes paid to study it have,  your speculation is as good as anyone else. This "i know better than Sun" atitude is starting to get tiresome.

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It is simpler (and more reliable) than that if you just use Web Start.  But that would be missing the point (again).

But you need a JRE to use Web Start right Sherlock Holmes ?

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Where do you come up with this nonsense?  I specifically made it a requirement that you MUST prominently announce the use of Java technology.  I repeated it several times.  You were arguing about it having any marketing value earlier.  Now you are just making things up to argue about and aren't following the thread at all.

You have misunderstood. I was just trying to give you a better alternative. Announcing Java tech is not just about putting a picture of the java dude in your game. People must be able to check if the jre is actualy there.

Then i think Sun can autorize people to legaly embed a smaller Java VM in their apps under certain conditions.
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder


Exp: 12 years


Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #94 - Posted 2005-11-02 00:17:11 »

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Because JME is not the same thing at all.  It would mean ADDing things to JME. Possibly improving performance of JME etc.  JME does not include the HotSpot JVM for example.

So improve it yourself. Adding things is not a problem, removing things is. You should be asking them to add things to the JME not removing things from the JRE. For small games you won't even notice the JIT is not there. For bigger games 16MB won't even be a problem. So you don't have a problem in any case.

Nobody is asking THEM to remove anything.  Writing the equivalent of HotSpot is a non-triial task that I don't think is reasonable to expect of the game developers that would benefit from a reduced distribution size.  Re-doing all of the other bits that could be needed doesn't seem to be practical either.

How are you relating execution speed to the size of the game content? (small game = JIT won't matter Huh).  We just don't seem to be communicating here.


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Pure speculation on your part.  Does AlienFlux crash more?  you seem to be under the impression that there is something tricky to this. There is not.  Don't include the bits that your application can't possibly ever use.  That's all there is to it.  It only gets even remotely tricky (i.e. not hard at all) when you start doing reflection to load classes from the standard JRE, or where the JRE itself might do this.  But that is manageable.

You still don't get it right ?

Geez where should i start

First Alien Flux isn't a statistic.

No, it is one sample point.... collect some more then we can get to the statistics.  You don't have any that supports your point I'm aware of.

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Second things don't work that way in the real world. People would find ways to abuse it.
I know, like they already are with MoleBox Smiley.  Why would the revised license be any worse? (below you see to suggest that this is already allowed in certain conditions anyway.)  What example do you have of the abuse you speak of that would not be violating the license?   The details of this is really a job for the lawyers and Sun to work out I suppose... but so far I'm not seeing any evidence to support the idea that some harm would come to the Java platform as a result of these proposed license changes.

 
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If you had a better understanding of how the market works you would understand what im saying.

Perhaps this is true.

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Third a company like Sun don't just make decisions based on forum discussions and browsing indie game sites. They have marketing analists and lots of other paid employes who can help them make good decisions and still the market is very unpredictable.

Allowing people to freely decide what the JRE is, be it embeded in a program or not, would be a disaster and would make Sun loose control of their own technology and people loose confidence on it with all the problems that would happen.

I know, the forum discussion and indie game developers are simply suggesting that a proposal be made to Sun such that they might direct their marketing analysts and other relevant employees to take a look at the idea.  We aren't deciding things for Sun, we are simply trying to influence Sun's decisions in a way that would benefit us.. as users of Sun's product this seems to be a reasonable thing to attempt.  Aren't we allowed to use the suggestion box?

Considering that what we propose is happening already and so far there is no disaster nor evidence to suggest that one is coming, I am hesitant to accept your position.

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Unless you have a very good understanding of how Suns market works, something that Suns employes paid to study it have,  your speculation is as good as anyone else. This "i know better than Sun" atitude is starting to get tiresome.

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It is simpler (and more reliable) than that if you just use Web Start.  But that would be missing the point (again).

But you need a JRE to use Web Start right Sherlock Holmes ?

Yes.  I suggested Web Start to eliminate the need for the user to choose a specific JRE that is compatible with your product.  Let Web Start deal with that part.  I was merely getting at this part of what you said, "...tell your buyers its a java game that runs with version X.Y or bigger and give them the link to sun for them to download and install the jre."    The "simpler (and more reliable)" part that I referred to was to let you code the versions of the JRE that your product is compatible with in a JNLP file to make it easier on the user, that's all.  On some platforms this means that Web Start will download an appropriate JRE if it is not already installed. That seems simpler than asking your users to do it manually every time.
(On windows I believe there is an active X control that can deal with much of the steps of getting a JRE installed for you. )

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Where do you come up with this nonsense?  I specifically made it a requirement that you MUST prominently announce the use of Java technology.  I repeated it several times.  You were arguing about it having any marketing value earlier.  Now you are just making things up to argue about and aren't following the thread at all.

You have misunderstood. I was just trying to give you a better alternative. Announcing Java tech is not just about putting a picture of the java dude in your game. People must be able to check if the jre is actualy there.

For what purpose?  The only thing i can think of is so people didn't claim a product used Java technology when it didn't.  Is there really a need to be able to check for this?  If I use some open source code in my project and follow the license terms and include a message saying what I did in my product, do I still have to make sure people can check that I REALLY used that code?  How?

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Then i think Sun can autorize people to legaly embed a smaller Java VM in their apps under certain conditions.

Well I guess that is what we are talking about, the "conditions."     Isn't the bulk of this thread all about getting some more practical conditions in place?  If so, is it just that you disagree with the conditions that I proposed?  And, if so, what exactly is your argument then?

I am thoroughly confused now.

And sorry for being a bit harsh in this thread.  The failure to communicate effectively is making me a bit snappy.

Offline Tzan

Junior Member





« Reply #95 - Posted 2005-11-02 00:39:45 »

swpalmer
You have been clear enough... several times. I completely understand your points and agree with them.
Its a very simple point that some people seem bent on complicating.
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #96 - Posted 2005-11-02 01:46:16 »

Nobody is asking THEM to remove anything.

You are asking them to change the license to let you remove parts of the JRE in certain circunstances like embeding the java vm in an application.

small game = JIT won't matter Huh

No it doesn't matter. Most indie games < 5Mb are simple enough and use only a very small fraction of the CPU.

No, it is one sample point.... collect some more then we can get to the statistics.  You don't have any that supports your point I'm aware of.

Collecting one sample point or two for three or half a douzen of them for that mater doesn't make a statistic. A statistic is a collection of data done under certain circunstances that make it valid. You still have to choose the samples right and make sure you have a big enough collection of samples you can claim it's representative of your population. This is what a statistic is about.

I don't need to prove anything because i don't want them to change anything. Im not happy with the way things are but im not bothering myself trying to push them about doing anything to change it. I prefer to use the technology available and work on the missing parts myself. Don't count on Sun doing anything this century to make Java the best platform available for games.

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The details of this is really a job for the lawyers and Sun to work out I suppose... but so far I'm not seeing any evidence to support the idea that some harm would come to the Java platform as a result of these proposed license changes.

That doesn't let you claim there isn't none only that you are unaware of it.

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I know, the forum discussion and indie game developers are simply suggesting that a proposal be made to Sun such that they might direct their marketing analysts and other relevant employees to take a look at the idea.  We aren't deciding things for Sun, we are simply trying to influence Sun's decisions in a way that would benefit us.. as users of Sun's product this seems to be a reasonable thing to attempt.  Aren't we allowed to use the suggestion box?

Of course. But also try to understand we may not know everything about their investments and strategy. Companies like Sun have paid prophessionals to collect market data, analize it and make management decisions. They also have many areas of interest besides what we know that are important for their technology.

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Considering that what we propose is happening already and so far there is no disaster nor evidence to suggest that one is coming, I am hesitant to accept your position.

Because its only being used sporadicaly not in a generalized way. I think we can agree that the more changes people are allowed to make to the JRE the bigger the chances to someone do it wrongly and create a bad image for Sun.

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For what purpose?  The only thing i can think of is so people didn't claim a product used Java technology when it didn't.  Is there really a need to be able to check for this?  If I use some open source code in my project and follow the license terms and include a message saying what I did in my product, do I still have to make sure people can check that I REALLY used that code?  How?

Open-source is a different case but any open-source project must make the source code available. With the java vm its obvious that if you want to use the java logo you must be able to prove that you are actualy using java technology under the circunstances allowed by a Sun license. Otherwise how would they enforce and control their license terms ?

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Then i think Sun can autorize people to legaly embed a smaller Java VM in their apps under certain conditions.

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Well I guess that is what we are talking about, the "conditions."     Isn't the bulk of this thread all about getting some more practical conditions in place?  If so, is it just that you disagree with the conditions that I proposed?  And, if so, what exactly is your argument then? I am thoroughly confused now.

Perhaps one of these conditions is paying some money to get customized java vm for a certain app. If you have enough bucks to pay them to for a custom license for your indie game im sure they wouldn't mind about it. But we know this is not a realistic scenario.

I still don't understand why not asking for adding what you are missing to the JME won't be valid solution ?


swpalmer
You have been clear enough... several times. I completely understand your points and agree with them.
Its a very simple point that some people seem bent on complicating.

Or maybe you just think you get it but you don't.
Offline g666

Junior Member





« Reply #97 - Posted 2005-11-02 08:57:50 »


small game = JIT won't matter Huh

No it doesn't matter. Most indie games < 5Mb are simple enough and use only a very small fraction of the CPU.


That is not true in any way., just because a game is < 5mb doesnt mean it has to be a tetris clone.

desperately seeking sanity
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #98 - Posted 2005-11-02 09:30:11 »

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I still don't understand why not asking for adding what you are missing to the JME won't be valid solution ?

There has been talk about a smaller, game specific JRE for years. A release has even been announced a few years back, but it never surfaced.
Realistically speaking, it isn't going to happen and if it is, it will take a long time.

The point is that we want to propose a legal way for distributions which *are not java*, but *use* parts of the JRE under the hood, invisible for anything else other than the application itself.
It is like a shortcut to deal with the problem that the Sun JRE is not deployed everywhere and that it's too big for many (maybe even most) to install.
What Sun would get out of it is more acceptance of Java in the indie games world.

Maybe we as a community should join forces with the JET guys somehow in their discussion with Sun about their JETPerfect issue which has, as I understand it, exactly the same problem. Sun is denying them to compile an exe of a java program which omits parts of the JRE in order to make the .exe smaller, even though the compiled exe is not a JRE at all (from a user's point of view).
Many indies are considering JET to create easily distributable .exe files, but the Sun license makes this difficult again because it makes it impossible to make the compiled exe small enough.

Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #99 - Posted 2005-11-02 09:33:55 »

swpalmer
You have been clear enough... several times. I completely understand your points and agree with them.
Its a very simple point that some people seem bent on complicating.

True.


small game = JIT won't matter Huh

No it doesn't matter. Most indie games < 5Mb are simple enough and use only a very small fraction of the CPU.


That is not true in any way., just because a game is < 5mb doesnt mean it has to be a tetris clone.


Also true. Just throw some particles in... or a toys like springs, swarming behaviours etc. Having system requirements of 3ghz and up for a casual game would be plain silly. Without JIT java wouldnt be an option for me.

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Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #100 - Posted 2005-11-02 10:07:14 »

Exactly. Besides, a JVM like that on the desktop would hurt the java brand because of the "java=slow" stigma, which would immediately become true again in a field where raw performance is especially important.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 390
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #101 - Posted 2005-11-02 12:12:46 »

The fact that this discussion comes up so frequently and is the same old problem over and over and has been for, ooh, four or five years now, is indicative that either something needs to happen, or that Sun are somehow once again watching another grand business opportunity fly past.

Cas Smiley

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #102 - Posted 2005-11-02 15:34:30 »

small game = JIT won't matter Huh
No it doesn't matter. Most indie games < 5Mb are simple enough and use only a very small fraction of the CPU.
That is not true in any way., just because a game is < 5mb doesnt mean it has to be a tetris clone.

Also true. Just throw some particles in... or a toys like springs, swarming behaviours etc. Having system requirements of 3ghz and up for a casual game would be plain silly. Without JIT java wouldnt be an option for me.

If you use an OpenGL binding it's OpenGL that does all the rendering work so a JIT is not very important unless you have to render a big amount of 3d objects and use lots of textures. Something that easly increases the size of a small game. If you keep the complexity of your game graphics to a small game most users won't notice anything and thats what i said above "most games". Read all the words. It doesn't mater from a statistical point of view. Of course that for users who have a 16k modem and still run java on a Pentium1 200Mhz and 14'' mono monitors this may be a problem.

swpalmer
You have been clear enough... several times. I completely understand your points and agree with them.
Its a very simple point that some people seem bent on complicating.
True.

You can believe in anything you want if that makes you happy.

The point is that we want to propose a legal way for distributions which *are not java*, but *use* parts of the JRE under the hood, invisible for anything else other than the application itself.

That is quite a different thing but you still don't see the problem. Why do you think they would allow everyone to just use any parts they choose of their technology for free ? You must admit that asking them to allow everyone to disassemble their tech and use parts of it for free is not very reasonable or economicaly feasable. You can use the JRE and the JME for free because you have to use it under certain restrictions. We don't own the JRE. We are allowed to download it and use it under their conditions and thats it.

Maybe we as a community should join forces with the JET guys somehow in their discussion with Sun about their JETPerfect issue which has, as I understand it, exactly the same problem. Sun is denying them to compile an exe of a java program which omits parts of the JRE in order to make the .exe smaller, even though the compiled exe is not a JRE at all (from a user's point of view).
Many indies are considering JET to create easily distributable .exe files, but the Sun license makes this difficult again because it makes it impossible to make the compiled exe small enough.

Thats understandable no ? If they allowed for that it would be easy to ignore the license terms.

The fact that this discussion comes up so frequently and is the same old problem over and over and has been for, ooh, four or five years now, is indicative that either something needs to happen, or that Sun are somehow once again watching another grand business opportunity fly past.
Cas Smiley

Really ? Companies like Sun prefer  "milk cow" like investements. They are just like Microsoft but a little more prophessional and a lot less crocks.
Offline Vorax

Senior Member


Projects: 1


System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #103 - Posted 2005-11-02 18:25:01 »

If you use an OpenGL binding it's OpenGL that does all the rendering work so a JIT is not very important unless you have to render a big amount of 3d objects and use lots of textures. Something that easly increases the size of a small game. If you keep the complexity of your game graphics to a small game most users won't notice anything and thats what i said above "most games". Read all the words. It doesn't mater from a statistical point of view. Of course that for users who have a 16k modem and still run java on a Pentium1 200Mhz and 14'' mono monitors this may be a problem.

Sorry, but that statment is very wrong, there is alot more to games the just graphics.  What about AI, collision detection, vector math, etc.

Have a look at the game I am working on

It's a casual game, but it still has pathing, collision detection, and a heck of alot of math.  It's playable on a 500Mhz machine, with the JIT, without it you would need 3-4Ghz to make it playable.

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That is quite a different thing but you still don't see the problem. Why do you think they would allow everyone to just use any parts they choose of their technology for free ?

Then the question is - what does Sun want from Java?  If they want it to be used for gaming, it must be competitive with other solutions.  I don't remember getting into any licensing issues when I was doing C or C++.  The whole reason Java is free in the first place is for market penetration.

Quote
You must admit that asking them to allow everyone to disassemble their tech and use parts of it for free is not very reasonable or economicaly feasable. You can use the JRE and the JME for free because you have to use it under certain restrictions. We don't own the JRE. We are allowed to download it and use it under their conditions and thats it.

I would gladly pay to be able to use a stripped down JRE that's embedded within my installation and unaccessible to other programs.  Heck, I would pay to use some of the API's.  Sun has lots of ways they could be making more money on Java, but they want to get it as widely used and accepted as C/C++.... well, that's all we are talking about now isn't it - the acceptance of Java as a viable language (remember, it is supposed to be a programming language and technology, not a software package) for making games.  Despite what you think, Indy games can have a huge install base - well into the hundreds of thousands (for a single game) and it is one of the fastest growing business segments for software development.

Quote
Really ? Companies like Sun prefer  "milk cow" like investements. They are just like Microsoft but a little more prophessional and a lot less crocks.


That is exactly why it's in Sun's interest to make Java as big a brand as Windows is.  You need a field for the cows.  The more penetration Java gets in all forms of software development, the more Sun benefits from brand recognition.  Some day they may get enough traction to really do the Java processor and actually make money from it.

You know what though?  Let's be honest, Sun doesn't get out of Java what it should.  Sun originally pushed Java because it would promote their hardware and other services/solutions that integrated with Java.  Now, has that happened?  Hardly.   We and Sun would probably all be better off if Sun just open-sourced Java.

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #104 - Posted 2005-11-02 20:06:57 »

If you use an OpenGL binding it's OpenGL that does all the rendering work so a JIT is not very important unless you have to render a big amount of 3d objects and use lots of textures. Something that easly increases the size of a small game. If you keep the complexity of your game graphics to a small game most users won't notice anything and thats what i said above "most games". Read all the words. It doesn't mater from a statistical point of view. Of course that for users who have a 16k modem and still run java on a Pentium1 200Mhz and 14'' mono monitors this may be a problem.
Thats nothing to with what i said. Read again Read it again to undertsSorry, but that statment is very wrong, there is alot more to games the just graphics.  What about AI, collision detection, vector math, etc.

Where did you read "games are just graphics" above ? Read the words "statistical point of view" in the context i use them.

How many games with less than 5MB are complex enough to have performance problems without a JIT? Maybe a chess game. But hey i have played chess games on the Amiga running a 25Mhz. For the most part a normal vm sufices for the kind of small games im talking about where game size may be important.

Have a look at the game I am working on
It's a casual game, but it still has pathing, collision detection, and a heck of alot of math.  It's playable on a 500Mhz machine, with the JIT, without it you would need 3-4Ghz to make it playable.

Your game is a nice example but it is aprox. 14 megabytes. I think someone who can download a 16MB game can also download and run a 26 MB game no ? I don't see why you can't just bundle the JRE inside it.

It uses shadows and textures with 3d graphics. It doesn't look like it needs much AI and unless you are using java ode it there i don't see no reason for vector calculations to be so expensive. So it would probably still playbale in that 500Mhz computer because most of the work would be done by opengl if you do things right. Like using display lists and other tricks.

Then the question is - what does Sun want from Java?

Thats for them to decide. We can only guess.

The whole reason Java is free in the first place is for market penetration.

The word free with Java has a slightly different meaning like i said above. You are free to use it under certain conditions. You are not free to do everything you want with it like a truly free program.

Quote
I would gladly pay to be able to use a stripped down JRE that's embedded within my installation and unaccessible to other programs.

You only have to ask them. But would it be worth the trouble ? An indie game sells around 5$ and 20$.

Quote
Sun has lots of ways they could be making more money on Java, but they want to get it as widely used and accepted as C/C++.... well, that's all we are talking about now isn't it - the acceptance of Java as a viable language (remember, it is supposed to be a programming language and technology, not a software package) for making games.  Despite what you think, Indy games can have a huge install base - well into the hundreds of thousands (for a single game) and it is one of the fastest growing business segments for software development.

Quote
That is exactly why it's in Sun's interest to make Java as big a brand as Windows is.  You need a field for the cows.  The more penetration Java gets in all forms of software development, the more Sun benefits from brand recognition.  Some day they may get enough traction to really do the Java processor and actually make money from it.

You know what though?  Let's be honest, Sun doesn't get out of Java what it should.  Sun originally pushed Java because it would promote their hardware and other services/solutions that integrated with Java.  Now, has that happened?  Hardly.   We and Sun would probably all be better off if Sun just open-sourced Java.

Sure we can allways speculate on what would be good for Sun. They don't know how indie the market will evolve and it may be a suprise to everyone . Nothing stops you from trying to convince them to get a smaller java runtime. However i still think that asking for a JIT to JME is a much more realistic aproach than asking for changing the JRE license for embeding on applications. You are still ignoring the fact that people would exploit this easly to avoid Sun license and get a customized jvm for free and Sun would not be able to control this.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #105 - Posted 2005-11-02 21:55:42 »

[...]
If you use an OpenGL binding it's OpenGL that does all the rendering work so a JIT is not very important unless you have to render a big amount of 3d objects and use lots of textures. Something that easly increases the size of a small game. If you keep the complexity of your game graphics to a small game most users won't notice anything and thats what i said above "most games". Read all the words. It doesn't mater from a statistical point of view. Of course that for users who have a 16k modem and still run java on a Pentium1 200Mhz and 14'' mono monitors this may be a problem.
[....]

There is more than graphics. And even simple games can be pretty cpu taxing. All you need are lots of collision checks or some physics... or say... ragdoll stickmen.

Without jit your minimum system requirements go straight through the roof.

And your "statistical pov" is based on what? Valve's stats? Oh please... For casual games its good to target 5-6 years old hardware. Which each year less you lose a piece of the pie. (Hardware is build to last about 6 years.)

I know what I'm talking about. This machine has 500mhz (5.75 years old) and without jit you cant do much... except of course... puzzle games... duh.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline Vorax

Senior Member


Projects: 1


System shutting down in 5..4..3...


« Reply #106 - Posted 2005-11-02 22:03:02 »

How many games with less than 5MB are complex enough to have performance problems without a JIT? Maybe a chess game. But hey i have played chess games on the Amiga running a 25Mhz. For the most part a normal vm sufices for the kind of small games im talking about where game size may be important.

Go to www.realarcade.com and check out the top 10 list of games there.  These are not the low end, low tech kind of things you seem to think they are.  They are high performance, high production value games built to run fast even on low end machines.  You seem to be confusing hobby games with portal market casual indy games.  They really aren't the same anymore and no JIT means no go.

Quote
Your game is a nice example but it is aprox. 14 megabytes. I think someone who can download a 16MB game can also download and run a 26 MB game no ? I don't see why you can't just bundle the JRE inside it.

My game is only an alpha with a menu and one level.  It's 14 megs with a somewhat stripped down VM inside it.  It would be much smaller with more stripping, well under 10MB.  However, it would be 26 MB with a full JRE and if I add more sound, music, graphics, models, etc. to finish the game the size will probably grow by another 5MB at least bringing it to around 31 MB.  31 MB compared to similar games that would be less then half that.  It's already going to be large, now it's going to be bloated as well.

Quote
It uses shadows and textures with 3d graphics. It doesn't look like it needs much AI and unless you are using java ode it there i don't see no reason for vector calculations to be so expensive. So it would probably still playbale in that 500Mhz computer because most of the work would be done by opengl if you do things right. Like using display lists and other tricks.

I didn't mention the shadows, the algorithms for that are so expensive I ignored it as obvious - even with a JIT only high end PC's and graphics cards can run with them.  There is very little AI, but collision detection is very expensive and it has it in spades.  The vector calculations are expensive because they are necessary for the physics, bounding boxes and collision detection.  There is no ODE, it's an all Java game engine.  And trust me, the engine is definetly doing things right - it gets higher vertex throughput then Q3 and It's doing alot more tricks then just display lists.  Without a JIT through (I have tried, it can be turned off), it runs like crap on my 2.6Ghz machine.

Quote
You only have to ask them. But would it be worth the trouble ? An indie game sells around 5$ and 20$.

It would definelty be worth it  A top ten indy game on the portals can be pushing 10-100K copies a month - do the math Wink

Quote
You know what though?  Let's be honest, Sun doesn't get out of Java what it should.  Sun originally pushed Java because it would promote their hardware and other services/solutions that integrated with Java.  Now, has that happened?  Hardly.   We and Sun would probably all be better off if Sun just open-sourced Java.

Quote
Sure we can allways speculate on what would be good for Sun. They don't know how indie the market will evolve and it may be a suprise to everyone . Nothing stops you from trying to convince them to get a smaller java runtime. However i still think that asking for a JIT to JME is a much more realistic aproach than asking for changing the JRE license for embeding on applications. You are still ignoring the fact that people would exploit this easly to avoid Sun license and get a customized jvm for free and Sun would not be able to control this.

If people exploit it they would simply be breaking the license right?  Is that ANY different then what they could do now?  No.   Thus there is no more risk - and since it's a planned potential, it infact minimizes the risk and removes temptation for abuse from others that now have a viable option.

Offline darkprophet

Senior Member




Go Go Gadget Arms


« Reply #107 - Posted 2005-11-03 00:02:46 »

Quote
How many games with less than 5MB are complex enough to have performance problems without a JIT?

Oh dam....you've done it now....

Friends don't let friends make MMORPGs.

Blog | Volatile-Engine
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #108 - Posted 2005-11-03 02:23:39 »

Quote
How many games with less than 5MB are complex enough to have performance problems without a JIT?

http://www.java-gaming.org/forums/index.php?topic=9665.0
 Grin

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 390
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #109 - Posted 2005-11-03 10:07:21 »

Actually looking at my minigames, they don't run at an acceptable framerate without JIT. (I don't consider 30fps acceptable).

Cas Smiley

Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #110 - Posted 2005-11-03 11:57:36 »

Go to www.realarcade.com and check out the top 10 list of games there.  These are not the low end, low tech kind of things you seem to think they are.  They are high performance, high production value games built to run fast even on low end machines.  You seem to be confusing hobby games with portal market casual indy games.  They really aren't the same anymore and no JIT means no go.

Sure indie games are getting more and more professional each day.

The ones on the front page.

Granny in Paradise - 18MB - a platform game similar to chucky egg but  with better graphis
Bricks of Atlantis - 8.91MB - a bricks like game, played these on the Amiga with better graphics than this one in particular
Ancient SuDoKu - 11.71MB - a puzzle game
Gem Shop - 12.91MB - another puzzle game
Aloha TriPeaks - 12.31MB - a cards game, played lot of these on the Amiga

1. Fortune Tiles - 14.81 MB - a tiles game
2. Gem Shop see above
3. Bricks of Atlantis see above
4. Granny in Paradise see above
5. Ancient Sudoku see above
6. Ahoa Tripeacks
7. Ahoa solitaire
8. TriJinx
9. Readers Digest Super Word Power

I played games much more complex than this on my 25MHz Amiga.

Thanks for proving my point and raising my game size reference above 5MB to 10MB. Wink

Quote
My game is only an alpha with a menu and one level.  It's 14 megs with a somewhat stripped down VM inside it.  It would be much smaller with more stripping, well under 10MB.  However, it would be 26 MB with a full JRE and if I add more sound, music, graphics, models, etc. to finish the game the size will probably grow by another 5MB at least bringing it to around 31 MB.  31 MB compared to similar games that would be less then half that.  It's already going to be large, now it's going to be bloated as well.

So your game without a javavm would be something like 15MB. You said by adding a jvm it would raise from 10MB to 26MB and then you have to add +5MB.  It may be a little bigger than the usal but it's Java. Not that it make lots of difference LOL. OK you get a small point in there but thas because you are using the JRE.
 
Quote
I didn't mention the shadows, the algorithms for that are so expensive I ignored it as obvious - even with a JIT only high end PC's and graphics cards can run with them.  There is very little AI, but collision detection is very expensive and it has it in spades.  The vector calculations are expensive because they are necessary for the physics, bounding boxes and collision detection.  There is no ODE, it's an all Java game engine.  And trust me, the engine is definetly doing things right - it gets higher vertex throughput then Q3 and It's doing alot more tricks then just display lists.  Without a JIT through (I have tried, it can be turned off), it runs like crap on my 2.6Ghz machine.

Strange. Considering that quake with a software rendering engine was quite runnable on my PC with less than 200Mhz at the time. If you had access to opengl in the JME that would not be a problem at all. The difference in speed running a Java program without JIT in your case would be around 10x slower with 2Hhz/200MHz. This happens only in worst case situations. The  difference is usually around 5x. This is also strange because you would have to run the game in software mode without a JIT to get such a low performance.

Unless you do a perfomance test to your and tell me whats the part of your code that is wasting more time is not possible to take any conclusions from this.

Quote
If people exploit it they would simply be breaking the license right?  Is that ANY different then what they could do now?  No.   Thus there is no more risk - and since it's a planned potential, it infact minimizes the risk and removes temptation for abuse from others that now have a viable option.

You can get away with it if you do it right. With JET (or whatever the name is) and an obfuscator. Otherwise you would get their lawers in your track very kickly.

Actually looking at my minigames, they don't run at an acceptable framerate without JIT. (I don't consider 30fps acceptable).
Cas Smiley

Then you should see what they use for the frame rate in xbox games. You would be suprised. I have read they fix it around 20-30 fps in a gamasutra article. Making the framerate fixed at a certain size will let you have more time for game cycles and less for rendering cycles and your game will animate better without framerate speed changes.
Offline oNyx

JGO Coder


Medals: 2


pixels! :x


« Reply #111 - Posted 2005-11-03 12:50:49 »

>Considering that quake with a software rendering engine was quite runnable on my PC with less than 200Mhz at the time.

Oh yea. 320x200x8 at like 12-15fps... that was really great Roll Eyes

>Then you should see what they use for the frame rate in xbox games

Usually its 30 or 60 for ntsc and 25 or 50 for pal.

Can we now go back to topic please? You could start your own "I need no jit" topic. Well, you already know my opinion about that. Java without jit would really suck.

弾幕 ☆ @mahonnaiseblog
Offline ryanm

Senior Member


Projects: 1
Exp: 15 years


Used to be bleb


« Reply #112 - Posted 2005-11-03 13:06:53 »

Can we now go back to topic please?

Here, here!

Zingbat, you're clearly vehemently opposed to a change in the Java licence. Unfortunately, in the hurly-burly of all these long quote-ridden posts, I've quite lost track of precisely what your objections are. Is there any chance you could provide a succinct list?

Cheers.
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #113 - Posted 2005-11-03 20:45:34 »

Zingbat, you're clearly vehemently opposed to a change in the Java licence. Unfortunately, in the hurly-burly of all these long quote-ridden posts, I've quite lost track of precisely what your objections are. Is there any chance you could provide a succinct list?
Cheers.

Im not personaly against anything. I have listened the arguments and answered them. But It seams like a few people get easly bothered when someone discuss their arguments and try to show them alternatives.

I think my reasons are very clear for people who know something about how a profit oriented company like Sun works. The JRE license is very important for Sun and they won't take any risks with it.

You have much better chances if you ask  them to improve the JME instead. Thats my opinion. Another alternative: there are plenty  javavms besides Suns that work with gnu-classpath and have a JIT. These are not top quality one like Suns but are free.

http://www.kaffe.org/links.shtml#kaffebasedvms
Offline g666

Junior Member





« Reply #114 - Posted 2005-11-03 21:00:56 »

[quote ]
Considering that quake with a software rendering engine was quite runnable on my PC with less than 200Mhz at the time.
Quote

runnable or playable ? Roll Eyes (also quake or quake 3 Cheesy)

desperately seeking sanity
Offline robilad

Junior Newbie





« Reply #115 - Posted 2005-11-04 13:01:16 »

Another alternative: there are plenty  javavms besides Suns that work with gnu-classpath and have a JIT. These are not top quality one like Suns but are free.

http://www.kaffe.org/links.shtml#kaffebasedvms


There are quite a few speedy free software runtimes, actually, like JikesRVM.

If you are targeting Windows, and can expect .net framework to be installed, you can deploy your application using IKVM (translates the bytecode to CIL), while writing it in the Java programming language. Or you can ship a stripped down Mono, if you have to ship a CLR. Wink Information on IKVM is available at http://weblog.ikvm.net/ .

Your other options are using gcj[1] to translate the bytecode to native code, and ship that. Or use JCVM to compile your bytecode to C, and ship the resulting binary.

In terms of traditional VMs, you can ship Kaffe, Cacao, SableVM or JamVM.

JamVM in particular is interesting as it packs a full-featured 1.5-ish vm with a state-of-the-art interpreter engine into ~100k. I don't know yet how well that would work on windows, and whether it can be built using mingw32. I know that people have done that with Kaffe, and Kaffe can be equally well stripped down to ~500k including a quick jitter.

If you are targetting Windows Mobile devices, there is the Mysaifu VM, available at http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~dat/java/project/jvm/index_en.html .

All of the runtimes above use GNU Classpath, which you can customize to your heart's content, since it's open source. Just like the runtimes are. So you are free to use, distribute, modify, and redistribute your modifications.

That's possible because they are not using Sun's proprietary source code. Instead, they are re-implementations from scratch.

That has two side-effects: they are not tested for compatibility with Sun's TCK, so there may be areas where they and Sun's implementation of some detail in the spec differ. In general, those things are bugs, and tend to be fixed quite quickly by the respective developers, in particular if the bug reports submit a patch, too Wink.

The other important side effect is that since they are independant implementations, they are *not* Java, so one should take care not to abuse Sun's brands in connection with them. Branding them with Sun's logos, for example, will most likely get you into trouble with Sun.

See http://javalobby.org/java/forums/t53643.html for an announcement of yesterday's release of the latest version of the GNU Classpath class libraries.

cheers,
dalibor topic
(one of the Kaffe/Classpath people)

[1] http://thisiscool.com/gcc_mingw.htm for a mingw32 build of gcj with swt and swingwt.
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #116 - Posted 2005-11-04 17:10:12 »

Thanks robilad that is a great exposition. See people things are getting better and better with the opensource jvms. Some people here advocated for Sun javavm to be opensource now heres your change to contribute to an opensource jvm we can all use in our games without any commercial restrictions.
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #117 - Posted 2005-11-04 18:17:40 »

No it doesn't matter. Most indie games < 5Mb are simple enough and use only a very small fraction of the CPU.

If you use an OpenGL binding it's OpenGL that does all the rendering work so a JIT is not very important unless you have to render a big amount of 3d objects and use lots of textures. Something that easly increases the size of a small game. If you keep the complexity of your game graphics to a small game most users won't notice anything and thats what i said above "most games". Read all the words. It doesn't mater from a statistical point of view. Of course that for users who have a 16k modem and still run java on a Pentium1 200Mhz and 14'' mono monitors this may be a problem.

Zing, you have no idea what hotspot does if you genuinely believe this.

Quote
Really ? Companies like Sun prefer  "milk cow" like investements. They are just like Microsoft but a little more prophessional and a lot less crocks.

I think you mean "cash cow". Actually, any company that focusses on those ... dies. Cash-cows are products that you don't *need* to do any more work on, and just leave running on their own. Java is very much NOT a cash-cow. Things like what is proposed in this thread would turn it *into* a cash-cow.

So, in essence, the conclusion from your point above is "sun *should* do this".

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #118 - Posted 2005-11-04 18:21:00 »

[quote ]
Considering that quake with a software rendering engine was quite runnable on my PC with less than 200Mhz at the time.
Quote

runnable or playable ? Roll Eyes (also quake or quake 3 Cheesy)

Actually, I used to play quake1 on a 486DX4-100 (that's 100Mhz). It ran OK enough to play the game, but not competitively - it was 12 fps max, usually 3-4 fps.

But the point that zing totally misses because he/she has absolutely no ideas what they are talking about is that modern games are written on lower budgets in less time by not jumping through all the optimization hoops that quake etc were. Quake took a team of a dozen or so (varied a lot during dev IIRC) professional games developers SEVEN YEARS!!!

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline zingbat

Senior Member




Java games rock!


« Reply #119 - Posted 2005-11-04 22:06:21 »

Actually, I used to play quake1 on a 486DX4-100 (that's 100Mhz). It ran OK enough to play the game, but not competitively - it was 12 fps max, usually 3-4 fps.

Yeah if you google the net you will see that a Pentium 200 at least was required to play the game and the specs you mentioned are barely the minimun requirements.

But the point that zing totally misses because he/she has absolutely no ideas what they are talking about.

This thread was going on in an educated way without much personal jabings. Let's try to keep it this way.

... is that modern games are written on lower budgets in less time by not jumping through all the optimization hoops that quake etc were. Quake took a team of a dozen or so (varied a lot during dev IIRC) professional games developers SEVEN YEARS!!!

No blahblahblah that was not the point i was discussion with Vorax in an educated way. The point was in Vorax post that i answered with an example.

Anyway  to answer your new point you are trying to pretend it was Vorax point someone who wants to do a game needs know how to program, how to use a tool like perfanal to detect performance problems, how to use a debugger and do unit tests to make his game rock solid and to do clever optimizations. If not then the competition will, and sell their games instead. So even if someone is an indie gamer he has to be competitive if he has any real monetary interests.

I have an interest in java games the same way as you and anyother person in here. So if im disagreeing with some points in this discussion that doesn't mean im against anyone in particular. If you want to write a letter or do a request for Sun to change their JRE license then take my opinion for what is worth to you and do it. It would be better than doing nothing.
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