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  COLLADA  (Read 4021 times)
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Offline zingbat

Senior Duke




Java games rock!


« Posted 2005-09-24 10:29:27 »

First nvidia is going to use this format for the next FXcomposer2 then sony announces this will be the format of choice for their games. I can smell there is something going on here with this scene format as a lot of 3d tool creators have also announced support for this.

COLLADA is mostly like xml being a text/xml encoding. It would be east to make a binary encoding for this and use it as an actual game 3d format.
Offline Spasi
« Reply #1 - Posted 2005-09-24 10:40:01 »

Yes, and almost all major DCC apps have COLLADA support already. I haven't investigated the full spec, but I generally find it a very positive thing for the graphics industry.
Offline arne

Senior Duke




money is the worst drug- we should not let it rule


« Reply #2 - Posted 2005-09-24 21:29:38 »

Xith3d also got a collada loader (made by croft)

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Offline zingbat

Senior Duke




Java games rock!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2005-09-26 17:23:03 »

I thinks you will find this interesting, if you don't know abiut it already:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/colladablender/

Im considering using xith3 for making the engine of my indie remake in java. Im working on a c++ engine on top of irrlicht but making a second engine on top of xith3d would be very usefull for comparision purposes.

Collada needs a binary encoding however. Reading it directly from xml is a pain in the ass.
Offline cfmdobbie

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« Reply #4 - Posted 2005-09-27 09:16:32 »

I thinks you will find this interesting, if you don't know abiut it already:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/colladablender/

Fantastic!  Let's hope it gets into the core. Smiley

Quote
Collada needs a binary encoding however. Reading it directly from xml is a pain in the ass.

That's why you convert the models at compile-time into whatever format you like.

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline zingbat

Senior Duke




Java games rock!


« Reply #5 - Posted 2005-09-27 15:24:13 »

That's why you convert the models at compile-time into whatever format you like.

Thats right. And that would be doing a collada binary encoding for me.

Why wasting time with yet another game scene format if it was much easier to create an encoding for a format i am already familiar with ?

Offline zingbat

Senior Duke




Java games rock!


« Reply #6 - Posted 2005-09-28 23:07:43 »

By the way, this looks interesting:

http://www.w3.org/2003/09/xmlap/xml-binary-wg-charter.html

A generic xml binary encoding would be great for game developers in particular. This would solve not only the problem colladas being text xml but the problem of all other data formats game developers plan to use in their games.
Offline gregof

Junior Duke




in code we trust


« Reply #7 - Posted 2005-09-29 13:58:33 »

Collada needs a binary encoding however. Reading it directly from xml is a pain in the ass.

Hi
How is that so? reading from xml is not hard imho, and there are many tools available to make it easier, like for instance JAXB http://java.sun.com/webservices/jaxb/index.jsp
Agreed that xml might takes a little more memory and/or cpu when loading, but I for one gladly makes this tradeoff for the flexibility.

// Gregof
Offline Tomas

Junior Duke




Agency9


« Reply #8 - Posted 2005-09-29 15:12:40 »

Zip is extremly good at compressing text so its only during loading you get a memory peek,  so why bother with binary data  for files less than 100MB

Cheers
// Tomas

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Offline zingbat

Senior Duke




Java games rock!


« Reply #9 - Posted 2005-09-29 21:42:47 »

Zip is extremly good at compressing text so its only during loading you get a memory peek,  so why bother with binary data  for files less than 100MB

Cheers
// Tomas

Someone i know made a benchmark comparing collada to a binary format madeby him and got these numbers:

collada size 6 times bigger
collada speed 10 times slower
loading and saving collada 8 times slower

Don't know how exact these numbers are.

If we compress collada files not only it will take more time to decompress the files but we still have to spend time parsing it with java xml apis. If we use a custom parser made with a tool like antlr for example it can take less time than using the java xml apis but i guess its still 2x or 4x slower than a binary format.

In a MMORPG or a game with a free movement world that is being constantly loaded from disk speed is critical. In a FPS  this is probably not very important but a map that takes 5 minutes loading is allways better than one that takes 40 minutes.

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Offline anarchotron

Junior Duke




...precious bodily fluids.


« Reply #10 - Posted 2005-09-29 23:20:50 »

Parsing lots of large text based files at runtime will ruin your load times.  Long load times are one of my biggest pet peeves with games.  If your loading system isn't really really tight, it is _very_ easy for your load times to _very_ quickly get out of hand as your game progresses from prototype to completion.  Loading geometry data from ascii or raw xml is unacceptable from an end-user's usability standpoint.

[rant]
That being said the ImageIO.load() method for PNG is absolutely horrendous and is one of the slowest things in my loading chain right now.
[/rant]
Offline Riven
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« Reply #11 - Posted 2005-09-30 09:25:42 »

I can imagine it's the slowest thing in your loading chain. Why don't you take it out then?

I convert all my images to either GREY, RGB or RGBA raw files. Then gz-zip it (or not) and you rougly have PNG-compression.

Giant textures (1024x1024 -> 4MB) then take like 100ms to load ingame. You can compress your files to DXTn before distributing, if you'd upload it to the vRAM.

Since I did this, my loading-times became so tiny I removed the loading-bars in my game.

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Offline anarchotron

Junior Duke




...precious bodily fluids.


« Reply #12 - Posted 2005-09-30 16:22:54 »

What loader do you use for these formats?  Did you write your own?  Does DevIL handle all these?  I'd ideally use DDS files if a decent loader exists.
Offline Riven
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« Reply #13 - Posted 2005-09-30 20:01:15 »

If you just put the *raw* files on your harddisk, you don't need a loader.

Just read the bytes and send them to the GPU with GL_UNSIGNED_BYTE.
Same goes for DXTn (n=1,3,5) which is natively supported by the GPU.

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Offline anarchotron

Junior Duke




...precious bodily fluids.


« Reply #14 - Posted 2005-09-30 20:09:18 »

Ok thanks, I'll give that a shot.  I'm curious to see how the DXT formats handle mipmapping when feeding them directly to the card.

JW
Offline Riven
« League of Dukes »

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« Reply #15 - Posted 2005-09-30 22:35:42 »

Well, that doesn't work.

You have to mipmap your images, then convert to DXTn, store that on harddisk.
You'll only use 33% more space, which is acceptable.

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Offline Aaron_Anderson

Senior Newbie




perception is reality


« Reply #16 - Posted 2005-10-01 00:47:19 »

Reading the spec Collada is not meant to be a delivery format but is suppose to be used for tool interopt
Offline zingbat

Senior Duke




Java games rock!


« Reply #17 - Posted 2005-10-01 09:58:38 »

Reading the spec Collada is not meant to be a delivery format but is suppose to be used for tool interopt

And thats because it's text/xml like we were discussing in the previous posts.
 Roll Eyes
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