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  Will we have Java on PS3 ?  (Read 7271 times)
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Offline karmaGfa

Junior Member




Miaow


« Posted 2005-09-21 20:21:23 »

Hello,

Actually, most of the game companies don't know what to do with all the cells of the PS3. I am sure that they could be used to run some bytecode and let the Java programmers obtain a sufficient level of performance for the thread that handle the game logic loop of their game. Moreover, to have a clean and bugless multi-thread program is easy in Java and the parallel architecture of the PS3 processors could be used more efficiently if there was a kind of multi-threaded JVM that run on it. Some libraries like jogl could also be ported to this plateform since the PS3 is using a OpenGL-like library. Even if the hardware of the PS3 doesn't enable the programmers to have true Java compliant JVM (with the right floating point format, etc ...) I guess that all the Java game programmers would really appreciate to have a JVM bastard on this plateform.

So here is my question :
Will we have a JVM ported to cell processors of the PS3 ?

karma

<a href="http://www.le-moulin-studio.com">Le Moulin Studio</a> - MMO Technologies and Services.
Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Member




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Reply #1 - Posted 2005-09-21 20:37:14 »

This is an old topic partner.  You should do a search first.  Shocked

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline karmaGfa

Junior Member




Miaow


« Reply #2 - Posted 2005-09-21 20:40:20 »

yes, sorry.

I didn't come on the forum for a long time so I should had spend time to read the previous topics.

I would like to reformule my question :
In how many years can we hope to have some Java fans or emulation freack guys make a JVM/jogl/joal/jinput for the PS3 ?

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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #3 - Posted 2005-09-24 00:25:46 »

Its not likely, unfortunately, that an independant volunteer group will produce a workable VM on the PS3.

ANyoen can build a crappy interpreted VM, but a Hotspot level VM and, importanyl, garbage colelctor really is still
rocket-science.  IBM and Sun both went out and hired the brightest VM minds they could find in the world to build their VMs.

Unfrotunately, it basically stands at this:
(1) There is no direct revenue argument for Sun to do it that is compellign enough in these tough times for Sun to convicne management.

(2) IBM isnt likely to do it for the same reason, no obvious revenue return.  (The ONE thing that MIGHT convince them to do it is to support their cell push but, frankly, cell is doing just fine today in the market without a VM.)

(3) Sony will not pay for it unless enough of their improtant developers demand it.  As long as it isnt there, the console develoeprs are ignoring Java, so you've got a catch 22 going on.

Now the one interesting recent develoment is that the Blue-Ray spec requires Java as the disc scripting language for menus and such.  So there will be a VM on the PS3 because ist blue ray.  before you get to oexcited however, realize that the performance requirements to support blue-ray are much lower then seriosu game programmign so it isnt necessarily going to be a game-appropriate VM.    Furthermore, there is no requirement that anything BUT the blue-ray player software be able to access it :/

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Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #4 - Posted 2005-09-24 00:32:35 »

I think a reasonable thing to do would be to see how well Apache's Harmony project does and port the relevant bits of  it to PS3.
http://wiki.apache.org/harmony/

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #5 - Posted 2005-09-24 00:44:26 »

Just a thought: how bad would a simple, memory efficient interpreter be if you would bind to native games engines? It would be easy to port to a console, and still have many advantages as an uber scripting language.

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #6 - Posted 2005-09-24 00:49:48 »

Just a thought: how bad would a simple, memory efficient interpreter be if you would bind to native games engines? It would be easy to port to a console, and still have many advantages as an uber scripting language.

Pretty easy actually.  You might even be able to get your hands on some pre-existing open soruce oens, there were a numerb around.

As I say, Java execution isnt hard. Fast, efficient Java execution is.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #7 - Posted 2005-09-24 00:56:31 »

So a java binding to, say Renderware or something, might be a good start then  Smiley
I'm guessing even without such a binding, java would still be a fun and easy way to create games which don't require much processor speed (and *many* games don't). You could even tie the JVM directly to PS3's OpenGL implementation, without any JNI.

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #8 - Posted 2005-09-24 06:26:31 »

. You could even tie the JVM directly to PS3's OpenGL implementation, without any JNI.

It has been sugegsted in some circels that the binding to OGL_ES  on the cell phone will allow the slow cell phone VM<s to do acceptable games.

Im afraid Im in the "I'll believe it when I see it" on that one.

But just as a scripting language, then absolutely it it were my projects Id look at soemthing like kaffine...


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Offline killy

Junior Newbie





« Reply #9 - Posted 2005-09-24 12:14:15 »

 I think that large game devolpers do not feel  needs for java game. But independant devloper that make home brew program for PS3 or PSP, will concern  JVM for console.  JVM for console will reduce direct hacking to console. java has very concrete security and maybe protect piracy well. If Sony provide JVM for Console to user, hacking  will be  reduced.
 Giving a example, fast loader for PSP is not allowed on Java, but text viewer, photo viewer mp3 player, emulator will satisfy common user. 
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Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #10 - Posted 2005-09-24 13:28:15 »

Many times it has been mooted that a pure Java based console would be an interesting market. Linux with a Sun JVM on it and cheapass 3D hardware (GF3 sorta speed) and 128MB of RAM is probably doable for under $200. It will in no way affect the PS2/XBox/GC wars of course - it's a completely separate market for home console hobbyists. Could it make a profit?

Cas Smiley

Online kappa
« League of Dukes »

JGO Kernel


Medals: 74
Projects: 15


★★★★★


« Reply #11 - Posted 2005-09-24 16:04:32 »

well if ps3 blueray thing is gonna have a jvm anyway, don't think it would be too much effort on sony's part to give access to it and add a small opengl binding as well, maybe a patition or something might help persuade them to include it!
Offline killy

Junior Newbie





« Reply #12 - Posted 2005-09-24 16:44:38 »

 I heard that SONY want to make  PSP into open platform for downloadable contents.  It's the reason that SONY not blocked program load on memory stick. But because of some piracy problem, downloadable contents is not allowed yet. 

 I think that java wiil be  the best solution for piracy free downloadable contents or homebrew program, cause Java's concrete security. And SONY has a right to decide limitation jvm's ability. For instance, memory stick loading program size restriction...

 Do you know PSP's flash rom size? PSP has 32Mb flash rom for firmware but current PSP's firmware size is about 15Mb. I think Jvm's maxsize is roughly 10Mb.
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #13 - Posted 2005-09-24 17:19:47 »

If Sony has any nous at all they will put a public / private key auth system on their JVM classloader and you will find that no code can be run in their JVM without it having been signed by their private key (or keychain ending with said key). In other words they will likely franchise the ability to run Java code on the PS3. Just like they do for everything else that runs on it.

Cas Smiley

Offline Falken

Senior Newbie




biggidy bong


« Reply #14 - Posted 2005-09-24 18:23:45 »

Indeed, if we're talking about the Blu-ray JVM, only licensed manufacturers can make those BD-ROMs.  Sony has full control over that franchise.  BD-ROMs can download Java classes via the network, so there is a possibility for Sony to allow some discs to act as distribution portals - although I doubt they will.

I strongly believe we are likely to see Java based consoles appearing soon - obviously they won't be as powerful as PS3 or PSP but does that matter?
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #15 - Posted 2005-09-25 05:08:11 »

Many times it has been mooted that a pure Java based console would be an interesting market. Linux with a Sun JVM on it

Actually there is a Sun Labs project that is very much something like this.  Ive been curious to look into it as soon as I have more time.

Withotu knowing what labs is up to on that, I'mm play the "waht if" game too...

Anoitgher labs project is called "MVM". MVM is a Java VM that has noit just a threading model but a process model so you can enforce process isolation for multipel apps runnign in the same VM. This includes support for all of the "DOS" issues such as one processusing up all the memory, hogging the processor, etc.

A linux kernel + MVM would be a real Java OS...


Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #16 - Posted 2005-09-25 13:41:16 »

It would be nice if something came of it. I'm sure it's feasible. MVM sounds like something we could do with on the desktop as well (always-resident Java execution service anyone?)

Cas Smiley

Offline pepe

Junior Member




Nothing unreal exists


« Reply #17 - Posted 2006-05-29 15:09:12 »

Pardon me to resurrect an old thread, but after reading news of this year's javaone, i came to read this page
http://java.sun.com/javaone/sf/sessions/general/sun_friday.jsp
where this sentence caught my eyes..
"Many consumer products are Java technology-powered, including the upcoming Sony PlayStation 3, to be released in the fall."

Info? intox? did i miss something? I rushed here and found no bold-huge-sized-blinking announce about that, so i believe that i might not be the only one to have missed it.
Has anyone got something on that subject?

Home page: http://frederic.barachant.com
------------------------------------------------------
GoSub: java2D gamechmark http://frederic.barachant.com/GoSub/GoSub.jnlp
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 342
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #18 - Posted 2006-05-29 15:35:53 »

Apparantly it's some private slow-ass J2ME style VM for running stuff on the DVD menus. Nothing useful for us.

Cas Smiley

Offline pepe

Junior Member




Nothing unreal exists


« Reply #19 - Posted 2006-05-30 13:29:14 »

Apparantly it's some private slow-ass J2ME style VM for running stuff on the DVD menus. Nothing useful for us.

Cas Smiley
I don't even imagine what java has to do for that..

IMHO, they should not have talked about it.
"heh, we have java in the space shuttle"
" oh, great. In the cockpit? For the communications between earth and shuttle? To manipulate the robotic arm?"
" erm... errr.. nah, we display earth time in the locker's room..."

Home page: http://frederic.barachant.com
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Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #20 - Posted 2006-05-31 03:46:17 »

Java is part of the Blu-ray (high-definition video disc) specification.    If you have ever had to program DVD-based games or even just reasonable DVD menus you will welcome  Java on such devices Smiley

I suspect that some simple games will be possible, like you see on some interactive satellite boxes, but I doubt very much that you would be able to use that VM for anything that looked like it belonged on a PlayStation.  Unless of course someone tossed Sony a quarter and they bought a clue.

Offline whome

Junior Member




Carte Noir Java


« Reply #21 - Posted 2006-06-03 10:54:36 »

Blu-ray BD-J Application Development using Java ME
http://www.rimlife.com/bluray/

Its like digitv receiver's MHP platform, it's Java but not really performance and feature-rich JVM profile.
Offline kylix999

Junior Member





« Reply #22 - Posted 2006-06-03 11:04:39 »

Blu-ray BD-J Application Development using Java ME
http://www.rimlife.com/bluray/

Its like digitv receiver's MHP platform, it's Java but not really performance and feature-rich JVM profile.


thank you very much for that link, there is many useful info, really intresting thanks Cheesy

but are there some lists of classes available for jvm for blueray , will it be something like midp 2.0? , is there some javadoc for BD-J ?
Offline harry@dayfamilyweb

Junior Member





« Reply #23 - Posted 2006-06-03 12:17:29 »

It would be nice if something came of it. I'm sure it's feasible. MVM sounds like something we could do with on the desktop as well (always-resident Java execution service anyone?)

Cas Smiley
is there any webpages/articles about that Grin Cool
links please
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #24 - Posted 2006-06-03 12:40:14 »

Even assuming that the VM wasn't a slow, crippled POS (which it will be) you'll probably only be able to use it directly from a BluRay disc. And commercial BluRay burners aren't going to happen for a looooong time.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #25 - Posted 2006-06-05 00:23:52 »

Even assuming that the VM wasn't a slow, crippled POS (which it will be) you'll probably only be able to use it directly from a BluRay disc. And commercial BluRay burners aren't going to happen for a looooong time.

Um...  2 seconds with Google produced:  http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/26/samsung-sh-b022-blu-ray-burner-reviewer/

Quote
The final model is due out in April for about $500, and will include copy protection, along with the ability to write double-layer 50GB discs.

That's this past April :-)

Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #26 - Posted 2006-06-05 02:11:42 »

Holy carp on a stick, I stand firmly corrected! A tad pricey at $500 but considering how expensive all the BluRay players are promising to be thats not half bad.

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Offline kylix999

Junior Member





« Reply #27 - Posted 2006-06-12 19:46:26 »

there is an intresting material about sony problems with ps3, for example that first units in the markets will have cpu clock 2,8 ghz not 3,2, also there will be cheanges in rsx chip, more intersting news in below site:

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/sony/more-ps3-downgrades-on-the-way-179863.php
Offline whome

Junior Member




Carte Noir Java


« Reply #28 - Posted 2006-06-13 13:18:28 »

Anyone knows if this list is a valid and up-to-date between BD-DVD and HD-DVD?
http://users.skynet.be/fa414947/Personal%20Stuff/CurrentStats-v1.1.jpg
Offline Falken

Senior Newbie




biggidy bong


« Reply #29 - Posted 2006-06-13 23:24:53 »

I recognise that list from the blu-ray forums.  This thread suggests it was last updated on 19th March and I doubt the situation has changed much since then.  Blu-ray is clearly at an advantage, but trying to get all of those companies to agree on anything is presumably what is causing the delays they're having.
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