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  Performance Myths  (Read 10280 times)
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Offline Abuse

JGO Knight


Medals: 12


falling into the abyss of reality


« Reply #30 - Posted 2003-06-26 15:31:26 »

Treasonous to say, but isn't the xbox a more realistic contender for a decent JVM  Shocked

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Offline princec

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Medals: 362
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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #31 - Posted 2003-06-26 16:49:54 »

Technically, yes; politically, no.

You may or may not know, for example, the Nvidia hardware in the XBox was tested using OpenGL but switched to DirectX for all-too-familiar reasons. The Xbox will remain a thoroughly closed abomination owned by the devil for all time.

Cas Smiley

Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #32 - Posted 2003-06-26 17:13:00 »

What I find humourous about that statement, Prince, is that all three of the current consoles are "thoroughly closed abomination owned by the devil for all time". What would really be nice is if something like the Indema (Was that was it was called?) could ever get off the drawing board and into peoples homes. Then maybe we could get something running on them.

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
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Offline Abuse

JGO Knight


Medals: 12


falling into the abyss of reality


« Reply #33 - Posted 2003-06-26 18:27:27 »

Quote
What I find humourous about that statement, Prince, is that all three of the current consoles are "thoroughly closed abomination owned by the devil for all time". What would really be nice is if something like the Indema (Was that was it was called?) could ever get off the drawing board and into peoples homes. Then maybe we could get something running on them.


So so true.

Make Elite IV:Dangerous happen! Pledge your backing at KICKSTARTER here! https://dl.dropbox.com/u/54785909/EliteIVsmaller.png
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #34 - Posted 2003-06-26 18:31:08 »

Quote
]...except that I came to the conclusion that Sony-san does not want this to happen to PS it would devalue the whole product by diluting its exclusivity. How do you control franchise licensing for a Java title? How is Sony-san going to extract his yen from Alien Flux?

The conclusion we came to (and again, more recently in an interview with Java Developers Journal) runs something like this:

Me: Sony don't need a JVM in reality because it loosens their grip on the PS franchise.

JeffK: Oh no it doesn't



there are issues of both Sun and Sony confidentaility here I assume you already understand.

Given that i can tell you the following:

(1) There have been issues between Sun and Sony about a PS2 port.

(2) Opening the platform is NOT one of them.  We presented them with a number of solutions to this problem ranging from the VM being destributed as licensed middleware to them actually owning the VM and encrypting the class files with a private key.

The important thing is that I am convinced thatw e convinced them that this wont open the box.  (And any hopes that we would were wrong to begin with.)

(3) There *are* some technical issues I cannot discuss without violating my Sony NDA.  They are tough but i believe solvable in the end.  There are business issues which the business guys are workign on.  The business relationship is actually pretty strong, as anyone who was at the third day of the game summit might surmise from the 8 PS2s we had playing games (just for fun.)

We still have not given up hope here and I'd encourage you not to either, but I'd also quickly say that at this stage I can't *promise* what will show up when, if ever.


Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline princec

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Medals: 362
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« Reply #35 - Posted 2003-06-26 18:57:28 »

The way forward out of this corporate deadlock can only come from a 3rd party and selling their JVM to developers already licensed to produce Playstation games. The consumer need never know or care about Java. It's not exactly a winning situation for Sun but somebody'll make some money out of it.

Cas Smiley


Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #36 - Posted 2003-06-26 19:24:01 »

Quote
The way forward out of this corporate deadlock can only come from a 3rd party and selling their JVM to developers already licensed to produce Playstation games. The consumer need never know or care about Java. It's not exactly a winning situation for Sun but somebody'll make some money out of it.

Cas Smiley



Absolutes are never absolutely right Cas.  You know that Smiley

Thats one solution.  Its not a solution I can have any impact on, so I'm concentrating my efforts on the ones where I can.

JK

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #37 - Posted 2003-06-26 19:26:03 »

Quote
I'd like to put 5 on "Sony doesn't see Java as a viable contender and they are doing just fine as the way things are now, thank you".



What are the odds?  I think I want to cover that one Smiley

JK

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline JasonB

Junior Member





« Reply #38 - Posted 2003-06-26 20:05:18 »

I'd take that one as well.  Considering the apparent jump in learning curve from std. console to next-gen console, and assuming the jump to the next-next-gen consoles may be even higher, it seems logical that Sony might look at development platforms that hide some of that complexity.  Java seems an obvious choice.

I'm confident enough to put 5 down on Java appearing on the PS3.... ;-)
Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #39 - Posted 2003-06-26 20:21:11 »

Well, I'd gladly GLADLY pay the $5 if that happens.  Grin
Not to each of you mind you, you'll have to split it.

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #40 - Posted 2003-06-26 20:27:55 »

Well, Sony have flat-out stated that they're making the PS3 even more difficult to program than the PS2, just to raise the bar.  The idea is that with companies being forced to use better programmers or get out of the market, the game quality will improve.  With that in mind, they should avoid Java entirely as it opens up the field a lot more than they'd like.

I personally don't see the connection between more proficient programmers and better games, and don't think such a strategy will actually pay off for Sony.  But time will tell.

I'll take five on "Sony(Games) are too busy designing PSP and PS3 to care much about Java - why do they care what the games are written in anyway?" Grin

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #41 - Posted 2003-06-26 20:56:00 »

Quote
Well, Sony have flat-out stated that they're making the PS3 even more difficult to program than the PS2, just to raise the bar.  


I'd really like to see a reliable quote on that.  Everyone I know on that side of the coin is very concerned about supporting the developers so they get product out the door, not making it harder for them and being a weakly supported platform.

Sounds like someone misunderstood something they heard someone else say, to me.


Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #42 - Posted 2003-06-26 21:48:24 »

Quote
I'd really like to see a reliable quote on that.


You know, I'll have to take that comment back. Lips Sealed  I'm *sure* I read it somewhere (stated as an official quote), but I can't seem to find it now.  In the absence of any evidence, I take it all back.  Apart from my wager, that still holds! Wink

Quote
Sounds like someone misunderstood something they heard someone else say, to me.


I guess it's the kind of thing that can easily happen with what they're doing.  There's been so many conflicting reports about the PS3, when it'll be shipped, whether it'll use Cell or not ("not" at last count - that's been slipped to PS4)... Huh

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #43 - Posted 2003-06-26 23:23:30 »

I'll bet a PS3, that Java will be on a PS3!

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #44 - Posted 2003-06-27 08:08:56 »

Quote


I'd like to put 5 on "Sony doesn't see Java as a viable contender and they are doing just fine as the way things are now, thank you".

What are the odds?  I think I want to cover that one Smiley

JK



Ooops, sorry! I originally included it, but thought better of risking a figure Smiley.

  5-1: since Sony have quite a history of innovation (recall the PS's birth: a collaboration with Nintendo, which Nintendo pulled out of, and Sony eventually went ahead with anyway), and are quite willing to do unusual things to win a market-share battle (note: MS have a tendency to do "the same old things" instead). Also, Sony are painfully aware that PlayStation == Sony's saviour, and that they conquered a new market through fundamentally changing the audience (altering the demographic of games players, from teenagers to wealthy trendy 20/30-somethings).

So, I reckon there's a fairly good chance of it.

PS Warning for the unwary: I don't have to pay out on this until Sony goes bankrupt, because until then, they might *at any time* bring out a JVM Wink

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Abuse

JGO Knight


Medals: 12


falling into the abyss of reality


« Reply #45 - Posted 2003-06-27 09:05:38 »

ok, heres a tricky 1.

Which will we see first,
Java on the PS/GameCube or
C# on the xbox Shocked

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Offline Woz

Senior Newbie




A Troll who lives in a hole


« Reply #46 - Posted 2003-06-27 10:34:22 »

If you would care to look at the Kaffe Ports page you will notice that this open source JVM has been available for the PS2 for some time: http://www.kaffe.org/ports.shtml

Kaffe has been ported to a vast number of platforms, mainly those ones that Sun can't be bothered with, such as BeOS or  Amiga OS. This is the benefit of open source.

The link points to a Japanese web site( http://www.sofarts.com/oldnew/computer/env-soft/pc-unix/ps2linux/kaffe.htm ), but you will notice in the top left corner there is a button with "English" written in it, this will translate the page into something proposing to be English...

Now before you all start getting excited, I will point out now that it is meant for Linux for PS2:
http://uk.playstation.com/hardware/linux_hardware.jhtml?linktype=NAV
Note the 40Meg hard drive and the 8meg ram card needed.

However, this is not that much different from the rumoured spec for the new PSX featuring DVD writer, 120Meg H-Drive, internet connection etc (see http://www.psx2.com/news/view_news.php?time=1054179401#1054179401 )

But they miss out on any greater technical detail, as memory is going to be vitally important if you are expecting anything other than crappy MIDlets to run on it.

The point being is that its got to be running on some OS for internet connection, and as most likely Linux would be chosen (cant see Windows CE some how).


This also highlights another problem, speed, the CPU in the PS2 runs at 294Mhz and is a RISC processor, with 8K data cache its going to be hard on Java.

But I couldn't find the memory bus speed, or the width of the data bus (32,64, 128 bits), used to know it but have forgotten.  It also uses dreaded RD-Ram (Rimbus anyone? Thought not), Which is fine for bandwidth but has very poor latency. These are more important.

32 Meg of ram, of which 4 Meg is Vram hardly cuts it today either.


(A technical overview of the ps2 : http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/1q99/playstation2-pr.html  Take with a pinch of salt.)


------
Woz.

Don't expect a hotspot compiler, which is arguably a disadvantage to entertainment software anyway.


Archimedes
Guest
« Reply #47 - Posted 2003-07-12 07:14:17 »

Quote

Make it run, make it run correctly, make it run fast -- in that order!

That's true and like it should be.
However, unfortunately, my experience from IT industry is that due to deadlines and a lot of other political reasons the last step oftenly "dies", sometimes the second step too.
Probably this is why so many games aren't fully playable until the 10th patch. :-|

Ok, lucky those at Unreal. When they've been asked by their puplisher (a French one?), when the game is ready, their lead developer answered: "It's finished when we're done." :-)
Archimedes
Guest
« Reply #48 - Posted 2003-07-12 07:43:08 »

Quote

I'd really like to see a reliable quote on that.  Everyone I know on that side of the coin is very concerned about supporting the developers so they get product out the door, not making it harder for them and being a weakly supported platform.

Smaller developer studios usually can't and won't afford to pay a sum of 25000 $ (roughly 25000 ¤) for just an official PS2 development kit. Further AFAIK they'll have to let review an entirely finished level of their game at Sony.

So I think it's correct to think that the big console companies like Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft (just three, isn't it?) don't want to have smaller development studios to make games for their consoles. It's a nearly closed market, where only the big game companies are allowed to play (and these are very few).

When I look at some smart PC games coming from (very!) small developer studios, I'd say you should not just allow big companies to produce games. For example Roller Coaster Tycoon has been and still is a top seller for years now. It's been done by Bravehearts: one developer, one artist, one musician, wow. :-)
(I better won't mention that Chris (Sawyer) didn't do it in Java, but in 80x86 assembler.)
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #49 - Posted 2003-07-12 07:57:33 »

I played the Unreal 2003 demo the other day. I was extraordinarily disappointed. But that's OT.

Cas Smiley

Offline gregorypierce

Senior Member




I come upon thee like the blue screen of death....


« Reply #50 - Posted 2003-07-26 22:17:21 »

Sony and Microsoft specifically have had specific programs for smaller developers, but they do require some money up front. The major publishers have always considered that both a deterrent to people who weren't serious and a way to defray the cost of any hardware and support they'd provide. Of the two, Microsoft has had the best/cheapest/most accessible program and it actually acted as a fast track for a lot of XBox developers who were new to the business.

http://www.gregorypierce.com

She builds, she builds oh man
When she links, she links I go crazy
Cause she looks like good code but she's really a hack
I think I'll run upstairs and grab a snack!
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #51 - Posted 2003-08-09 04:59:29 »

Quote

Smaller developer studios usually can't and won't afford to pay a sum of 25000 $ (roughly 25000 ¤) for just an official PS2 development kit. Further AFAIK they'll have to let review an entirely finished level of their game at Sony.

So I think it's correct to think that the big console companies like Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft (just three, isn't it?) don't want to have smaller development studios to make games for their consoles.


Your cause and effect here are linekd pretty weakly.

Consoles are sold at a loss.

One of the first profit streams the makers see are the dev kits.  Thats why they are so expensive, the makers still have a ton of development costs to pay off  on the console itself and they wont pay them off selling consoles.  Theya re spreading the cost of creating the market out aross al lthose who want access to the market.

(Eventually lower cost PSONE dev alternatvies came out, I'm sure eventually the same will be true for PS2.)

To assume that this is some great conspiracy designed to specifically thut out small developers though is bordering on the diagnosably paranoid.

Many small developers in fact DO develop for these consoles.  They do so by developign under contract to larger studios who can affords to front the money for the dev kits.  (When I was at Crystal Dynamics we released a  number of games that were done this way.)


Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #52 - Posted 2003-08-10 10:45:56 »

I was talking to BongPig of PomPom about their Xbox port, and it seems they haven't had to pay a penny to get the dev kit - M$ UK just took one look at their game and said, "Cool, that'd be great on XBox, here's the stuff you need".

So it looks like M$ have figured out that the side effect of excluding smaller developers is something else they could absorb. And of course, they're right - it's very, very foolish charging developers to work on your platform. And M$ have known this for years.

How will Sony respond?

Cas Smiley

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #53 - Posted 2003-08-11 06:31:31 »

Exactly.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but the argument that Sony doesn't want to exclude small dev studios but their 1st profit streams are dev kits with huge price tags puzzles me.  Huh
It seems so short sighted.

Offline princec

JGO Kernel


Medals: 362
Projects: 3
Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #54 - Posted 2003-08-11 07:29:58 »

I think our definition of "small" is considerably smaller than what Sony thinks it is. Small < EAGames or Activision as far as they're concerned...

Cas Smiley

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #55 - Posted 2003-09-05 22:35:03 »

Quote
Exactly.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but the argument that Sony doesn't want to exclude small dev studios but their 1st profit streams are dev kits with huge price tags puzzles me.  Huh
It seems so short sighted.


Its the early adopter thing, just liek any other consumer device.,

Early adopters pay a premium to help pay off dev costs.

Its just that in consoles the early adopters are developers.  Its far better in consoles to milk the early developers and get a lot of consoles out quickly then milk the early customers and screw up your launch.

Its really all very staightforward if you understand anything about consumer electronics marketing.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #56 - Posted 2003-09-08 06:14:12 »

So a dev kit is your typical 'consumer device'?  :-/
I guess you have to be very confident that all the big game developers establish your console soon enough after launch. If I were a multimillion company like sony having stiff competition from MS and Nintendo, I'd see a lower price tag for the dev kit as a good investment for having more games on shelves early.
But then again I know nothing about consumer electronics marketing.  Kiss

Erik

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