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  Performance Myths  (Read 10393 times)
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Offline Abuse

JGO Knight


Medals: 12


falling into the abyss of reality


« Reply #30 - Posted 2003-06-26 15:31:26 »

Treasonous to say, but isn't the xbox a more realistic contender for a decent JVM  Shocked

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Online princec

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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #31 - Posted 2003-06-26 16:49:54 »

Technically, yes; politically, no.

You may or may not know, for example, the Nvidia hardware in the XBox was tested using OpenGL but switched to DirectX for all-too-familiar reasons. The Xbox will remain a thoroughly closed abomination owned by the devil for all time.

Cas Smiley

Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #32 - Posted 2003-06-26 17:13:00 »

What I find humourous about that statement, Prince, is that all three of the current consoles are "thoroughly closed abomination owned by the devil for all time". What would really be nice is if something like the Indema (Was that was it was called?) could ever get off the drawing board and into peoples homes. Then maybe we could get something running on them.

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline Abuse

JGO Knight


Medals: 12


falling into the abyss of reality


« Reply #33 - Posted 2003-06-26 18:27:27 »

Quote
What I find humourous about that statement, Prince, is that all three of the current consoles are "thoroughly closed abomination owned by the devil for all time". What would really be nice is if something like the Indema (Was that was it was called?) could ever get off the drawing board and into peoples homes. Then maybe we could get something running on them.


So so true.

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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #34 - Posted 2003-06-26 18:31:08 »

Quote
]...except that I came to the conclusion that Sony-san does not want this to happen to PS it would devalue the whole product by diluting its exclusivity. How do you control franchise licensing for a Java title? How is Sony-san going to extract his yen from Alien Flux?

The conclusion we came to (and again, more recently in an interview with Java Developers Journal) runs something like this:

Me: Sony don't need a JVM in reality because it loosens their grip on the PS franchise.

JeffK: Oh no it doesn't



there are issues of both Sun and Sony confidentaility here I assume you already understand.

Given that i can tell you the following:

(1) There have been issues between Sun and Sony about a PS2 port.

(2) Opening the platform is NOT one of them.  We presented them with a number of solutions to this problem ranging from the VM being destributed as licensed middleware to them actually owning the VM and encrypting the class files with a private key.

The important thing is that I am convinced thatw e convinced them that this wont open the box.  (And any hopes that we would were wrong to begin with.)

(3) There *are* some technical issues I cannot discuss without violating my Sony NDA.  They are tough but i believe solvable in the end.  There are business issues which the business guys are workign on.  The business relationship is actually pretty strong, as anyone who was at the third day of the game summit might surmise from the 8 PS2s we had playing games (just for fun.)

We still have not given up hope here and I'd encourage you not to either, but I'd also quickly say that at this stage I can't *promise* what will show up when, if ever.


Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Online princec

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« Reply #35 - Posted 2003-06-26 18:57:28 »

The way forward out of this corporate deadlock can only come from a 3rd party and selling their JVM to developers already licensed to produce Playstation games. The consumer need never know or care about Java. It's not exactly a winning situation for Sun but somebody'll make some money out of it.

Cas Smiley


Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #36 - Posted 2003-06-26 19:24:01 »

Quote
The way forward out of this corporate deadlock can only come from a 3rd party and selling their JVM to developers already licensed to produce Playstation games. The consumer need never know or care about Java. It's not exactly a winning situation for Sun but somebody'll make some money out of it.

Cas Smiley



Absolutes are never absolutely right Cas.  You know that Smiley

Thats one solution.  Its not a solution I can have any impact on, so I'm concentrating my efforts on the ones where I can.

JK

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #37 - Posted 2003-06-26 19:26:03 »

Quote
I'd like to put 5 on "Sony doesn't see Java as a viable contender and they are doing just fine as the way things are now, thank you".



What are the odds?  I think I want to cover that one Smiley

JK

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline JasonB

Junior Member





« Reply #38 - Posted 2003-06-26 20:05:18 »

I'd take that one as well.  Considering the apparent jump in learning curve from std. console to next-gen console, and assuming the jump to the next-next-gen consoles may be even higher, it seems logical that Sony might look at development platforms that hide some of that complexity.  Java seems an obvious choice.

I'm confident enough to put 5 down on Java appearing on the PS3.... ;-)
Offline Mojomonkey

Senior Member




ooh ooh eee eeee


« Reply #39 - Posted 2003-06-26 20:21:11 »

Well, I'd gladly GLADLY pay the $5 if that happens.  Grin
Not to each of you mind you, you'll have to split it.

Don't send a man to do a monkey's work.
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #40 - Posted 2003-06-26 20:27:55 »

Well, Sony have flat-out stated that they're making the PS3 even more difficult to program than the PS2, just to raise the bar.  The idea is that with companies being forced to use better programmers or get out of the market, the game quality will improve.  With that in mind, they should avoid Java entirely as it opens up the field a lot more than they'd like.

I personally don't see the connection between more proficient programmers and better games, and don't think such a strategy will actually pay off for Sony.  But time will tell.

I'll take five on "Sony(Games) are too busy designing PSP and PS3 to care much about Java - why do they care what the games are written in anyway?" Grin

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #41 - Posted 2003-06-26 20:56:00 »

Quote
Well, Sony have flat-out stated that they're making the PS3 even more difficult to program than the PS2, just to raise the bar.  


I'd really like to see a reliable quote on that.  Everyone I know on that side of the coin is very concerned about supporting the developers so they get product out the door, not making it harder for them and being a weakly supported platform.

Sounds like someone misunderstood something they heard someone else say, to me.


Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline cfmdobbie

Senior Member


Medals: 1


Who, me?


« Reply #42 - Posted 2003-06-26 21:48:24 »

Quote
I'd really like to see a reliable quote on that.


You know, I'll have to take that comment back. Lips Sealed  I'm *sure* I read it somewhere (stated as an official quote), but I can't seem to find it now.  In the absence of any evidence, I take it all back.  Apart from my wager, that still holds! Wink

Quote
Sounds like someone misunderstood something they heard someone else say, to me.


I guess it's the kind of thing that can easily happen with what they're doing.  There's been so many conflicting reports about the PS3, when it'll be shipped, whether it'll use Cell or not ("not" at last count - that's been slipped to PS4)... Huh

Hellomynameis Charlie Dobbie.
Offline shawnkendall

Senior Member





« Reply #43 - Posted 2003-06-26 23:23:30 »

I'll bet a PS3, that Java will be on a PS3!

Shawn Kendall
Cosmic Interactive, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BermudaDash
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


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« Reply #44 - Posted 2003-06-27 08:08:56 »

Quote


I'd like to put 5 on "Sony doesn't see Java as a viable contender and they are doing just fine as the way things are now, thank you".

What are the odds?  I think I want to cover that one Smiley

JK



Ooops, sorry! I originally included it, but thought better of risking a figure Smiley.

  5-1: since Sony have quite a history of innovation (recall the PS's birth: a collaboration with Nintendo, which Nintendo pulled out of, and Sony eventually went ahead with anyway), and are quite willing to do unusual things to win a market-share battle (note: MS have a tendency to do "the same old things" instead). Also, Sony are painfully aware that PlayStation == Sony's saviour, and that they conquered a new market through fundamentally changing the audience (altering the demographic of games players, from teenagers to wealthy trendy 20/30-somethings).

So, I reckon there's a fairly good chance of it.

PS Warning for the unwary: I don't have to pay out on this until Sony goes bankrupt, because until then, they might *at any time* bring out a JVM Wink

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline Abuse

JGO Knight


Medals: 12


falling into the abyss of reality


« Reply #45 - Posted 2003-06-27 09:05:38 »

ok, heres a tricky 1.

Which will we see first,
Java on the PS/GameCube or
C# on the xbox Shocked

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Offline Woz

Senior Newbie




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« Reply #46 - Posted 2003-06-27 10:34:22 »

If you would care to look at the Kaffe Ports page you will notice that this open source JVM has been available for the PS2 for some time: http://www.kaffe.org/ports.shtml

Kaffe has been ported to a vast number of platforms, mainly those ones that Sun can't be bothered with, such as BeOS or  Amiga OS. This is the benefit of open source.

The link points to a Japanese web site( http://www.sofarts.com/oldnew/computer/env-soft/pc-unix/ps2linux/kaffe.htm ), but you will notice in the top left corner there is a button with "English" written in it, this will translate the page into something proposing to be English...

Now before you all start getting excited, I will point out now that it is meant for Linux for PS2:
http://uk.playstation.com/hardware/linux_hardware.jhtml?linktype=NAV
Note the 40Meg hard drive and the 8meg ram card needed.

However, this is not that much different from the rumoured spec for the new PSX featuring DVD writer, 120Meg H-Drive, internet connection etc (see http://www.psx2.com/news/view_news.php?time=1054179401#1054179401 )

But they miss out on any greater technical detail, as memory is going to be vitally important if you are expecting anything other than crappy MIDlets to run on it.

The point being is that its got to be running on some OS for internet connection, and as most likely Linux would be chosen (cant see Windows CE some how).


This also highlights another problem, speed, the CPU in the PS2 runs at 294Mhz and is a RISC processor, with 8K data cache its going to be hard on Java.

But I couldn't find the memory bus speed, or the width of the data bus (32,64, 128 bits), used to know it but have forgotten.  It also uses dreaded RD-Ram (Rimbus anyone? Thought not), Which is fine for bandwidth but has very poor latency. These are more important.

32 Meg of ram, of which 4 Meg is Vram hardly cuts it today either.


(A technical overview of the ps2 : http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/1q99/playstation2-pr.html  Take with a pinch of salt.)


------
Woz.

Don't expect a hotspot compiler, which is arguably a disadvantage to entertainment software anyway.


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