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  A thought on new stuff, regressions, how to use things  (Read 2625 times)
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Offline hawkwind

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Posted 2005-09-06 20:27:57 »

All

    As I have just downloaded the new community build I realize that new functionality has been added but there is now corresponding example code..  I personally work best by seeing something in use and copying/adapting this to my own needs.  I think we should require/ask that new additions be accompanied with an example class.  The advantages are

o  an easy test for regressions
o  an guideline for people trying to use the code.
o  errr proof that the new code works??
o  It would include assets (models, textures, etc.) that others could use to validate their code with.
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #1 - Posted 2005-09-07 02:23:03 »

Most do satisfy your criteria.

Regression tests are hard to perform as we are not doing any unit testing.  One can run all the Xith3D demo's but this does not cover all combinations of xith3d functionality.

In particular, the texture loading stuff which appears to be what you are talking about does satisfy these guidelines.  In fact, we had a public evaluation peroid of about three months before the code was added.  The changes are documented here: http://192.18.37.44/forums/index.php?topic=9771.0  There is also a new demo for the added functionality.  Like I said though, we can't really do regression testing ATM, hence the public "experimental" builds for people to try.

Will.

Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Devvie




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #2 - Posted 2005-09-07 15:48:13 »

...as we are not doing any unit testing...
But we should do unit testing !?

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline hawkwind

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #3 - Posted 2005-09-07 22:29:30 »


What I was really looking for is more than just a Texture example.

we have 3ds loaders that support animation (I think ) but we don't have an example of its use or a model.  I guess I could run out to newdawn and grab his examples loader to get a feel on how to use the Xith loader...but...

we have the recent loader work on md2 models but we don't have an example or a model

I have looked at the reference threads and can extract info but an example is better.  Quite often threads are filled with thoughts, musings, suggestions, and its not always easy to distill facts and resolutions.  An example though is proof, repeatable proof, and an archive of usage. 

Based on a variety of reasons I can only play with Xith periodically and although I read the threads it may be awhile before I can apply the information contained in the threads..  New examples are a place to track what has changed since the last time you looked. at the system
Offline arne

Senior Devvie




money is the worst drug- we should not let it rule


« Reply #4 - Posted 2005-09-08 12:09:46 »

I believe there is already a section for examples in the xith toolkit. But adding and making examples is costly in time. But usually examples have to be made anyways to test the code, so this should actulally not be a problem.

:: JOODE :: Xith3d :: OdeJava ::
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #5 - Posted 2005-09-08 13:38:59 »


Of course.

Are you volunteering?

Will.

Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #6 - Posted 2005-09-08 15:01:26 »


What I was really looking for is more than just a Texture example.

we have 3ds loaders that support animation (I think ) but we don't have an example of its use or a model.  I guess I could run out to newdawn and grab his examples loader to get a feel on how to use the Xith loader...but...

we have the recent loader work on md2 models but we don't have an example or a model

I have looked at the reference threads and can extract info but an example is better.  Quite often threads are filled with thoughts, musings, suggestions, and its not always easy to distill facts and resolutions.  An example though is proof, repeatable proof, and an archive of usage. 

Based on a variety of reasons I can only play with Xith periodically and although I read the threads it may be awhile before I can apply the information contained in the threads..  New examples are a place to track what has changed since the last time you looked. at the system



Regarding md2, I guess you missed this code then:  http://xith.org/showsrc.php?src=src/org/xith3d/test/MD2Test.java

It works great on my system, I love seeing that martian animated like that, it inspires me to get some MD2 models of my own to add to my game.



And there is:  http://xith.org/showsrc.php?src=src/org/xith3d/test/OBJTest.java, and http://xith.org/showsrc.php?src=src/org/xith3d/test/TDSTest.java for the other newdawn loaders.

Can you please be specific with whom you are addressing your comments to?  Myself and most other developers do endevour to provide example codes and announcements.  Take a look at my track record with additions to Xith3D such as Background, Foreground and RenderOptions -- each time I talk with the community, provide full javadoc comments and examples.  I even spend a lot of time making examples and documents for other peoples code. 

Almost all Xith3D code additions have examples attached.  As arne commented on, this is usually how people test their code.

Hell I spent half a day a while back moving some of Java Cool Dude's excellent demos into the Xith3D toolkit demo framework so they can more easily be maintained, better accessable and work with LWJGL  (http://xith.org/showsrc.php?src=src/org/xith3d/test/jcd/Lesson37.java) and (http://xith.org/showsrc.php?src=src/org/xith3d/test/jcd/TextureCubeMap.java).   Does anyone thank me for this?  No.

Just recently I spent an entire day working on this tutorial, at the cost of missing a groupwork deadline for uni, and missing another deadline relating to a commercial web site, both costing me some reputation in being able to deliver.  Granted, I should manage my time better -- but I just way to illustrate the effort that I am pouring into this project and the commitment I have to this community.

I am not responcible for everything that goes into Xith3D, and undoubtably there will be some changes which do not have clear examples.  When those changes relate to the toolkit, and the author is uncontactable, our options are to simply remove that code (I didn't even know there was a second 3DS loader in the toolkit till last week myself!!).    If you are referring to the recent TextureLoader2 changes -- those changes were in a public beta for 3 months!

I would love to see more people activly involved in making Xith3D better.  Often I spend my development time implementing features others have requested in Xith3D that I don't actually need myself.  Currently I should be either styding for uni, working on my personal projects or trying to earn some money to pay for my living costs.  Instead (amongst other things I guess) I donate my time to Xith3D for everyone to benifit from.

I hope your comments are not directed at me.  As the head maintainer of Xith3D, I can't help but feel a bit insulted.

Will.

EDIT:  rant toned down Wink

Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Devvie




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #7 - Posted 2005-09-08 19:27:46 »

Wow wow wow !
I totally understand and agree with you, will, as I've been the head maintainer of a game, and I am know the lead programmer of Gamma (which is not a big thing..)
When I say, "We should do unit testing", it's rather due to my approximtive english that my high exigences. "We could do unit testing if more people were interested, and were invested, and that'd be so cool !" Would be a better sentence, probably (yet too long).
Talking of coding/documenting, I find it's hard to find a balance. I mean, do people want lot of undocumented features, or a small set of well-documented features.
I personnally did found at the beginning that Xith3D LACKS of documentation. But the Getting Started Guide is cool and for the rest, code examples are easy to understand. And we should remember that the old head maintainer has leaved (David Yazel). So there are unmaintained packages/features.
It's sure that the community should be more involved in Xith.
But, personnally, I never know if I should do efforts to add features to Xith3D or to Gamma. Generally, Xith3D functions are hidden by Gamma interfaces/classes, so it's not absolutely needed to javadoc them (for me)..
I also have problem to manage my time, and I don't know yet when I'll start to code the Xith UI system, all I can actually do is tell you I'll make that. The first Gamma alpha version would be out on Saturday, and after that, there will be probably a whole bunch of bugs to correct, and a big set of new features to add !! So you see it's not always evident.
Another feature I dream to add to Xith is compatibility with a port of Cal3D, to make possible to use bones animations, animation blending, and other very cool features that aren't possible with MD2, but it's the same problem as with Xith UI, I really don't know when I'll start to code..
So, good luck everybody, invest yourself in Xith !

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline hawkwind

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #8 - Posted 2005-09-08 23:44:53 »

Dude.....where did that come from?Huh?  In no way was I complaining...really.  It was more of a suggestion., an idle suggestion, a really just off the top of my head suggestion..    I had kind of assumed that thoughts on the project were part of participating.

If you examine my postings you will see I DON'T FLAME anyone, not my nature.  I think I have been complimentary, especially of the HIAL work which I am using.

As to your work on Xith I am very appreciative as are many others.  In fact if you look at the credits for my game you will see yourself getting top billing.  (Rats forgot to add HIAL to your credits... Tongue)




I will respond to your reply...not to get into a "you said / I said " thing just that it seems to need a response


Quote
Regarding md2, I guess you missed this code then:  http://xith.org/showsrc.php?src=src/org/xith3d/test/MD2Test.java

It works great on my system, I love seeing that martian animated like that, it inspires me to get some MD2 models of my own to add to my game.


I did not at the time realize that toolkit examples were not with the other examples.  My bad  Cry  I would point out that others, including potential new users may also be confused.  I guess there are reasons to separate them, I did not initially see this..  I do stand by the idea that having a md2 model in the example section would be nice.

 

Quote

 I do stand by the idea that having a animated model in the example section would be nice.


Quote
Can you please be specific with whom you are addressing your comments to?....  I even spend a lot of time making examples and documents for other peoples code.   
Basically I was just posting thoughts, no one in particular,  although it would apply to the situations where you had to provide examples and doc for other peoples work

 

Quote
Almost all Xith3D code additions have examples attached.  As arne commented on, this is usually how people test their code.
Once again, a animated model was what I felt was lacking.

Quote
Does anyone thank me for this?  No.

You got top billing in my credits and I have thanked you in the past.

Quote
Just recently I spent an entire day working on this tutorial,
I am sure I posted a "great stuff, I personally use it" message.

Quote
If you are referring to the recent TextureLoader2 changes -- those changes were in a public beta for 3 months!
Haven't updated in awhile, unwilling to change core libraries to often.



Quote
I bloody well hope your comments are not directed at me.  As the head maintainer of Xith3D, I can't help but feel a bit insulted.

Will.

Will, in all honesty they were simple comments, thoughts, in no way were they directed to you..  Rereading what I wrote I still don't understand the anger in your reply..  Thanks again for your work with Xith3D.
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #9 - Posted 2005-09-09 00:00:32 »

Wow wow wow !
I totally understand and agree with you, will, as I've been the head maintainer of a game, and I am know the lead programmer of Gamma (which is not a big thing..)
When I say, "We should do unit testing", it's rather due to my approximtive english that my high exigences. "We could do unit testing if more people were interested, and were invested, and that'd be so cool !" Would be a better sentence, probably (yet too long).

Unit testing is unfortuantely a huge job if you don't do it right from the start (e.g. like with Extreme Programming).  On my list of priorities right now it doesn't rank very highly Smiley

There are certainly ways Xith3D can be improved, but not without greater participation.  I am only one man, and as I said in my rant, I already probably allocate too much time as it is.  If people are willing to donate money to Xith3D features and documentation, I would further increase my time commitment -- if there is interest in this idea, I can formalise it.

Xith3D is actualy pretty good as far as open source projects go.  I don't wish to knock the good people over at LWJGL and JOGL, because they are doing an excellent job but sometimes those API's will change without even a mention in the changelog!  People who use Xith3D perhaps don't know how lucky they are in that they are completally insulated from such changes, and the maintainers bear the brunt of fixing the code.  Xith3D, being young will occasionally need to break stuff, but so far this has always been done with extensive community consultation and open betas.

Regarding my words, they come from general frustration of people criticise without offering to help.  I do appreciate the contributions Hawkwind has made to the forum and his articles in the GSG, in fact he joins an elite group of just three people who have written GSG tutorials.  I hope perhaps he has just missed a few forum posts and didn't notice that in fact we (and I) do try to follow his ideas already. 

Will.

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #10 - Posted 2005-09-09 00:09:31 »

Dude.....where did that come from?Huh?  In no way was I complaining...really.  It was more of a suggestion., an idle suggestion, a really just off the top of my head suggestion..    I had kind of assumed that thoughts on the project were part of participating.

Hawkwind, sorry I was just letting off some bottled up frustration with life last night, I toned it down a bit while you were replying it seems.  You are actually an outstanding community member with your contribitions and helpfulness.  Thanks for the mention in your credits!  That's sweet.  Do you have an URL for the game yet?

You are right such thoughts are part of participating.  I feel sometimes that I am the only one carrying Xith3D, documentation wise at least so perhaps I too easily take to heart comments not directed at me.

I agree with your comments.  For things like animated 3DS, perhaps you could start a new thread asking Kevin Glass how it works.  IIRC the animation support is a bit buggy.  I did merge that code into the toolkit, but there is a good demo and I didn't want to not merge the code just because one feature wasn't exampled.  I guess the easy responce would have been "I agree, and I personally am trying my very best to make it happen, I wish others would help more!"

Cheers mate, no hard feelings I hope,

Will.

Offline hawkwind

Junior Devvie




Java games rock!


« Reply #11 - Posted 2005-09-09 01:35:15 »

 Grin None at all, ya just gotta open the papers to realize there are more important things to be pissed about.  Unfortunately I don't have the Math/detailed graphics knowledge to help much.  I will try to gen some new demo's though.
Offline Amos Wenger

Senior Devvie




Everything's possible, but not everything's fun...


« Reply #12 - Posted 2005-09-09 12:27:16 »

Having used Xith3D classes for a while, I think I would javadoc them if I could (no CVS developer access in Xith3D for now). Maybe I can grab the latest CVS version and send you the javadoc'd ones ?
For other documentation stuff, I think it would be great, if me, hawkwind, others people and eventually WillDenniss if he had time (Smiley) to do some HOWTOs. E.g. "How to achieve transparency effect ?" "How to do picking ?" "How to pick coordinates ?" And the ideal would be to have a search system on the xith site for useability. And people who just make a new thread on the forum can be redirected by us to these pages. What do you think of that ? Is it feasible ? Do some peoples have enough free time to do that ? Is it useful ?

"Once you start working on something, don't be afraid of failure and don't abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest"
Offline William Denniss

JGO Coder


Projects: 2


Fire at will


« Reply #13 - Posted 2005-09-10 01:43:34 »

Regarding Javadocs of the core, please feel free to add javadoc comments and submit your changed files or diffs to IssueZilla.  I will be moving some packages out of the core soon into the xith-tk project to make them more accessable.

Regarding HOWTo's and such, this is one of the great features of the Wiki.  Quick and Simple tutorials can be whipped up easily.  For example, my installation one, more importantly they can be changed easily too.  Getting Started Guide tutorials on the other hard are a little harder to write and keep updated -- however I think this format is very well suited to important "getting started" information.

I would encourage anyone with some tips to impart to make a section on the Wiki, and add a link to it at the bottom of the http://xith.org/Docs page.  The other option is to add an FAQ.

Will.

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