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  Considering 3d software renderer for a game applet...  (Read 4161 times)
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Offline c_lilian

Senior Member


Projects: 1


Java games will probably rock someday...


« Posted 2005-09-03 15:24:39 »

Hi all,

(hoping to have selected the right thread to post in)

I'm currently beginning a new 3D game prototype, and I'd like to try and deploy it as an applet (don't laugh).

The runtime compatibility level will be java 1.4+.

So I'm looking for a 3D software renderer, as I don't want the user to install anything else than java 5 on its computer, and java web start is not an option.

Idealy this would be opengl compatible, in order to integrate it in the Xith tree as a third renderer... but this is optional.

The game will be a 2d platformer with simple 3d rendering (low-poly, many textures), so I don't really need a multi-million polygon cruncher, just something with at least decent lighting / texturing and working well on a 1GHz computer.

I've already searched on the net for this, but I'd rather rely on this forum to send me into the right direction...

Any insight is welcome ! I'd especially appreciate links to already in use engines (don't want to much to spend time in debugging the renderer)

Lilian


Offline ryanm

Senior Member


Projects: 1
Exp: 15 years


Used to be bleb


« Reply #1 - Posted 2005-09-03 16:31:47 »

Hows about idx3d It seems like a nice little software renderer.
Offline Orangy Tang

JGO Kernel


Medals: 56
Projects: 11


Monkey for a head


« Reply #2 - Posted 2005-09-03 16:54:58 »

http://www.jpct.net/ is about the best software 3d renderer I've seen, as it's accurate rather than having horrible quality in exchange for speed. Works with applets and only needs a 1.1 VM too. Smiley

[ TriangularPixels.com - Play Growth Spurt, Rescue Squad and Snowman Village ] [ Rebirth - game resource library ]
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline c_lilian

Senior Member


Projects: 1


Java games will probably rock someday...


« Reply #3 - Posted 2005-09-04 07:03:05 »

jPCT : is it already used in some games  ?

is the API like opengl ? (I know there's a binding for LWJGL, but as I haven't looked at the API yet, it might as well be another scenegraph).

I'll download it soon to try it.

Any other soft renderers out there ?

Lilian

Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #4 - Posted 2005-09-04 09:18:27 »

Do you want to spend money?

Ideaworks3D and Qube Software are the two places I'd start. There was also a very very good java-only software renderer about 5 years ago that only had commercial versions, but because it was just one higly skilled programmer with no free version IIRC it never got much widespread fame (other than for having extremely pretty demos that ran fast on 300Mhz and below machines) - and I always forget the name, somethign generic.

I3D probably charge "too much" for licenses, and although their website is plastered with references to mobile, that's just because that's been the biggest market for small, fast, lean + mean java 3d software engines.

Qube was founded by the guy who ran the company that designed + wrote DirectX v.1, IIRC. I've known Jamie (now their program manager) for 15 years who was one of the best "codes tonnes of amazingly fast + gorgeous tech demos and games in tiny amounts of time" programmers I've ever met. IIRC last time I spoke to him about the Qube engine a couple of years ago he said they had or were about to have a java version, although I don't see it on the site right now - qubesoft.com

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


Medals: 1


http://t-machine.org


« Reply #5 - Posted 2005-09-04 09:24:06 »

There was also a very very good java-only software renderer about 5 years ago that only had commercial versions, but because it was just one higly skilled programmer with no free version IIRC it never got much widespread fame (other than for having extremely pretty demos that ran fast on 300Mhz and below machines) - and I always forget the name, somethign generic.

Actually, I reckon that could well be the idx3d that bleb linked to. It seems about the right age + feature set (although some of the demos from 1999, making much more interesting use of transparency, looked more impressive than most of the ones on the site right now).

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
Offline EgonOlsen
« Reply #6 - Posted 2005-09-04 10:49:13 »

jPCT : is it already used in some games  ?

is the API like opengl ? (I know there's a binding for LWJGL, but as I haven't looked at the API yet, it might as well be another scenegraph).
It's not as low level as OpenGL is but it's not really a scenegraph either. Have a look at the forums at http://www.jpct.net/forum for support and some examples of what has been created with it (Technopolies, Paradroidz, Karga...mainly in the projects section).

Offline bitshit

Junior Member




Java games rock!!


« Reply #7 - Posted 2005-09-10 18:56:43 »

I believe the latest release of LWJGL supports (unsigned) applets. Though Im not sure:

Quote
Added AccessController.doPrivileged where needed to make LWJGL installed as an extension work with sandboxed applications

Could anyone comment on that?
Offline c_lilian

Senior Member


Projects: 1


Java games will probably rock someday...


« Reply #8 - Posted 2005-09-11 07:29:25 »

It still uses a dll or  .so, so these things have to be installed first in the library path, and it doesn't work well on every platform (at least mac os)

There are some plans to unify applets and JWS deployment in mustang. I haven't checked yet but it would be ok in mustand to use a trusted jnlp extension within an applet (and the security dialog should be much less scary).

Anyway, I've started my own low level rendering API. for the moment it's not optimized but crushes 1 millon small visible tris /sec (or 30000 tris at 30 fps). I'm planning to have it dedicated to cel-shading and I'm directly incorporating this into the rasterizer. I'm currently fighting against matrix operations (I need to refresh my maths) as i'm not satisfied with the viewing algorithm I've choosen...

Lilian

Offline bitshit

Junior Member




Java games rock!!


« Reply #9 - Posted 2005-09-11 22:54:48 »

Quote
It still uses a dll or  .so, so these things have to be installed first in the library path, and it doesn't work well on every platform (at least mac os)

What do you mean exactly by library path? Wouldn't it be suficient to include the dll in your applet jar so it's in the classpath?

It's a real bummer applets don't support opengl without having to sign them Sad
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
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Offline bitshit

Junior Member




Java games rock!!


« Reply #10 - Posted 2005-09-11 23:04:11 »

PS: another very capable 3d engine can be found here:
http://dzzd.net/

this demo is especially interesting for games:
http://dzzd.net/demo/landscape/
Offline EgonOlsen
« Reply #11 - Posted 2005-09-11 23:29:44 »

Wouldn't it be suficient to include the dll in your applet jar so it's in the classpath?
No, that's not sufficient. You have to download them (via http for example) and store them locally. I've tried this once with LWJGL: http://www.jpct.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=258

Offline DzzD
« Reply #12 - Posted 2005-09-13 08:50:29 »

Quote
PS: another very capable 3d engine can be found here:
http://dzzd.net/

this demo is especially interesting for games:
http://dzzd.net/demo/landscape/

and also http://dzzd.net/demo/landscape3D/

Offline DzzD
« Reply #13 - Posted 2005-09-24 01:57:54 »

One more 3DzzD Demo http://dzzd.net/demo/landscape10/

Offline c_lilian

Senior Member


Projects: 1


Java games will probably rock someday...


« Reply #14 - Posted 2005-10-03 08:19:11 »

All right I've started the development of an opengl software renderer, based on existing GPL C++ renderer whose author has agreed to let me have it LGPL'ed once ported to java.
It will be initially limited to basic stuff (mutiple lighting / single-texturing) and I'll try later on to increase it's features..

if someone is interested to the point of beeing involved into the project, please let me know and I'll try to hava a java.net project started. For now I will just keep it at home and send sources and build system to the one that want to test it (just let me a few weeks to finish it).

I'll also start a third Xith render peer implementation to check the softGL against real examples...

Lilian

Offline DzzD
« Reply #15 - Posted 2005-10-04 23:18:27 »

Hi again,

If you are still looking for a 3D applet renderer those informations could interest you.

First version of 3DzzD API  soon available at http://dzzd.net  : alpha tests began yesterday and beta release will be downloadable in about 3-4 weeks, first version will include the followings features:

3DzzD limitations and features:

3DS loading : material,hierarchy, smoothing group,mesh,camera,lights

Material:
 - Diffuse: diffuse map, detail map, alpha,( light maps : by combinaison of diffuse and detail map), perpixel mipmapping, 2*2 anisiotropie, bilinear filtering.
 - Specular: color, power,level with real phong shading (only one light in first release)

Scene management:
 - Hierarchy between mesh,camera,light as in 3DS file
 - Time-based 3D animation : mesh/camera/light
 - Time-based material animaion: alpha, color, specular
 - Time-based : mapping animation
 - Clipping box : xmin,ymin,zmin,xmax,ymax,zmax
 - Camera : zoom, FOV, screen size, zclipping.

Others:
 - Skybox : can be export->import from terragen software
 - Antialias
 - Double buffering
 - Perfect zBuffer
 - Unlimited world size (double precision)
 - Collision detection and response (Time-based!)
 - Fully java1.1 compatible sun and microsoft JVM
 - Streaming textures and objects loading possible even at runtime
 - Small applet size (less than 50ko for first beta release)
 - Perfect perspective for lighting and texture : interpolated with 1/z
 - Free for non-commercial
 - And also Very simple to use!
 

More features will come with other release like fogging, Env-mapping, etc...

Bruno


 

 
 

 

Offline bitshit

Junior Member




Java games rock!!


« Reply #16 - Posted 2005-10-11 21:44:22 »

Quote
All right I've started the development of an opengl software renderer, based on existing GPL C++ renderer whose author has agreed to let me have it LGPL'ed once ported to java.
It will be initially limited to basic stuff (mutiple lighting / single-texturing) and I'll try later on to increase it's features..

if someone is interested to the point of beeing involved into the project, please let me know and I'll try to hava a java.net project started. For now I will just keep it at home and send sources and build system to the one that want to test it (just let me a few weeks to finish it).

I'll also start a third Xith render peer implementation to check the softGL against real examples...

Lilian

Sounds really interesting!
I wish I could help you out, but im afraid I lack the nescesary expirience in that field.

Maybe this can help you on your way, its something quite similar to what you're doing:
http://graphics.im.ntu.edu.tw/~robin/jGL/

Good luck and keep us updated on your progress!
Offline nonnus29

Senior Member




Giving Java a second chance after ludumdare fiasco


« Reply #17 - Posted 2005-10-12 00:14:23 »

I was going to post that jgl link  Angry .

Oh well....

You know, with 2+ Ghz computers, you'd think you could software render a pretty large applet....
Offline c_lilian

Senior Member


Projects: 1


Java games will probably rock someday...


« Reply #18 - Posted 2005-10-12 06:01:23 »

Hey thanks for the link ! I wasn't aware of that project. It could have saved me some time...

Currently I'm able to render with multiple lights and vertex colors, I haven't finished the texture and celshading but the rasterizer interpolators are ready...

I'm also thinking in using some templates to generate code with fixed loop size in order to accelerate interpolation... but I'll try that at the end of version 1...
 
I've enhanced the rendering pipeline by batching matrix computing (don't know yet if it's really worth it... I'll need a real case model to check that part).

I've also built a very simple scenegraph to check rendering against JOGL...

I'll post a demo in a week or two, to gather some statistics if you don't mind.

Lilian

Offline g666

Junior Member





« Reply #19 - Posted 2005-11-24 19:28:39 »


Some of the stuff on this page is truly amazing, source is availible too.

http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/

desperately seeking sanity
Offline DzzD
« Reply #20 - Posted 2005-11-24 19:58:07 »

I know this site well , it is really good, and Ken Perlin is a famous man, Search Perlin in internet or 3DSMax help,Terragen, etc....

Perlin Noise enable to create Pseudo-random-procedural-(Fixed) looking natural: Texture,Vegetation(Vue 2),Landscape(Terragen), and also human looking animation,etc....

NB.: Try to compile the algorithm showed on the top of the first page and you will see a nice mandelbrot fractal (Fixed font size).

Bruno


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