OpenGL crippled under Windows Vista

[DD.Jarod]

I found the post about that, like I said, I have no idea if it's true, but it sounds like it could be.

"The API are different enough (coordinate center position comes to mind, among other things.)"

the URL to the post
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=158252&cid=13262467

I searched a bit for the starting post about that part of the discuission, but din't found it

[Orangy Tang]

Coordinate origin would just be a matrix change. Given that you're going to be changing state anyway thats trivial to work around. Likely I'll guess you'll actually see graphics cards doing some better (read: some) state caching in vram for faster context switching.

Besides, we're already at the point where graphics cards will buffer up and delay actual rendering commands, a sensible driver should have no problem buffering up two or more sets of commands and running one after the other, with minimal amount of switching overhead. Take a little more memory sure, and a tad longer to render *your* app's stuff, but the overall thoughput should be pretty much the same.

[erikd]

This may be a silly question, but doesn't windows already use DX to speed up rendering?

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[woogley]

This may be a silly question, but doesn't windows already use DX to speed up rendering?

I think you are right here. Because nView (a feature that comes with some nVidia drvers) will complain that it cant make the taskbar translucent because windows is already using DirectX to render transparency or (something like that).

[arne]

To check this fact out could somebody simply run a DirectX app next to an OpenGL one? (I'm only a linux user, so I'm not able to check that out)

[oNyx]

Some german article about that topic here:

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/62708

They pretty much wrote the same stuff there... and no details from nvidia/ati yet... well, we'll see.

[Bombadil]

Some german article about that topic here:

http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/62708

They pretty much wrote the same stuff there... and no details from nvidia/ati yet... well, we'll see.

Well, the last sentence of your newsticker article says this alarming thing which I didn't read here in the thread so far:
"ID software said that for new projects they possibly will swap to DirectX" ! :-(

In case ID's support for OpenGL falls, OpenGL will be dead on the evil Windows OS and de facto on many other platforms too, which benefit from the cross platform aspect of OpenGL. Imagine Lightwave, Maya, etc.!
After all, this is what M$ wants since ever! Then they would own the one ring to rule them all (what's concerning 3d).

This would be a terribly sad thing for the freedom of choice what's concerning your favourite 3d API.
Furthermore I'm somewhat perplex on what to do with our game projects which base on JOGL or LWJGL! It's already been much work to handle them in one's spare time and now this!

Sigh. And the masses continue to hail Gates & M$.

[DD.Jarod]

I don't think that Doom3 would make a difference, its more up to the non-entertainment software, 3D Modelling, CAD, science etc. In that domain OpenGL usage is near 100% and thats where the problem really lies, because most of them are not fullscreen.
I personally think particularly the developers of highly commercial software (1k $ per license and up) will hold some funny talks with MS

[Matzon]

It occured to me, that unless this is fixed - the whole AWT/OpenGL-backend path is dead in the water.

[princec]

In theory it should be the same code that's running on OSX and *nix boxes, no?
Anyway, this isn't going to happen. Stop worrying about it.

Cas

Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!

[Alan_W]

I had another poke around the internet to see what muck has been stirred up and found some tests on a beta copy.

http://www.organicvectory.nl

It looks like merely installing an OpenGL ICD will disable aeroglass, whether it is currently in use or not 

A bit of an issue as your average punter is going to be upset if installing your game results in the permament loss of the fancy look and feel he/she shilled out for in the first place.

I also saw a post somewhere by an Vista team chap, who claimed the Open-GL to D3D interface was running more like 80% of direct OpenGL speed rather than 50%.  Still no shader support though.

[Orangy Tang]

It looks like merely installing an OpenGL ICD will disable aeroglass, whether it is currently in use or not 

Vista is still firmly in alpha (or prealpha, or whatever they're calling it now). It's not due out for how many years? Last estimate I saw was ~2007. You can't tell anything by the current behaviour (especially when trying to install a random ICD written without any intention of running on that OS).

If i had the inclination, I'd dig though slashdot's archive and find the near-identical FUD around XP's OpenGL support. But I'd rather dig though a bucket of rusty nails.

[erikd]

"ID software said that for new projects they possibly will swap to DirectX"

Seems like FUD, but if I would be ID, of course I would always keep the possibility open to support DX. But, since Vista still in early alpha, they probably won't switch now just because of Vista.

Now as I understand it, for games nothing will really change. The problem is only that OpenGL programs can not run in an Aeroglass window, without using the windows OGL-DX bridge driver. Games usually run full screen, in which case Aeroglass will shut down anyway. There might be a problem with CAD software (or other OGL apps designed to run in a window), but I would be surprised if that wouldn't be sorted somehow.

But again, it's all mostly speculation as Vista is in early alpha...

[woogley]

It's not due out for how many years? Last estimate I saw was ~2007. You can't tell anything by the current behaviour (especially when trying to install a random ICD written without any intention of running on that OS).

it actually has an official beta release (not alpha) and Microsoft has announced that the final is being released in 2006

[Spasi]

"ID software said that for new projects they possibly will swap to DirectX"

Seems like FUD, but if I would be ID, of course I would always keep the possibility open to support DX. But, since Vista still in early alpha, they probably won't switch now just because of Vista.

ID is already using D3D, which is totally understandable (and irrelevant to the Vista issue).

John Carmack, id Software - "I'm happy working with D3D9 on the Xbox 360 platform. We did seriously consider going D3D only on the PC, but there are still some mitigating factors. OGL will probably still be slightly higher performance on the PC pre-longhorn. ATI and Nvidia both still like the idea of being able to do more focused optimization work in OGL. We also still care about the Mac and Linux platforms."

[Bombadil]

"ID software said that for new projects they possibly will swap to DirectX"

Seems like FUD

I don't think so, taking into account Spasi's latest quote!

Now as I understand it, for games nothing will really change.

Again, I don't think so (I would hope so, still).
Onxy' mentioned IT magainze usually is very accurate. So far for their ID message. They also said in another sentence of the article this:
"Currently it's vaguely if ATI and Nvidia will just provide a Doom3-driver for Win-Vista, and provide a full OpenGL driver for the professional 3d cvard only (FireGL and QuadroFx)."

Oh well...

[princec]

That's the same ridiculous state of affairs that happened when the OpenGL MCD infested machines across the world.

Micrsoft are not going to let this happen. If the main suppliers of graphics cards supply ICDs which bugger the Windows experience up, who's going to look bad? Yes, that's right - Microsoft. Not the card vendors. The ICDs will be fixed and fully integrated with Aeroglass and DirectX. Stop getting into such a froth over it folks!

Cas

[endolf]

Hi

Ok, I've gone and had a read of the opengl forums too. I'm trying to look at just the technical aspects here, rather than just being an anti MS rant.

From my understanding (which is limited) the main problem is that Aero uses hardware acceleration to do some if the fancy graphics work. It uses DX to do this. Whilst on XP you can have a DX app running in a window at the same time a GL one running in another window, you can't have both using the same window. Aero with it's fancy DX calls will *be* the DX app, so you can't have GL inside it, hence either full screening your GL app (Aero DX app now doens't have the rendering context), or you run a gl wrapper which is actually calling DX so you are able to share the context.

Thats my understanding of the issue.

Either MS need to change their implementation of the desktop, or people like NVidea et al need to figure out a way of having one app running both DX and GL on the same rendering context.

Endolf

[tom]

So what we have to ask ourself:

When do we get D3D in J2SE?

That would rule

[arne]

So what we have to ask ourself:

When do we get D3D in J2SE?

That would rule

Nah that wouldn't really be a solution, cos what about linux and mac users? They would still be bound to use OGL, and I think nobody would make games for a linux and mac only market !! Even if it would rock if there would be a really good fun game that runs only at Linux and Mac, so more people would move away from Windows !! 

From my understanding (which is limited) the main problem is that Aero uses hardware acceleration to do some if the fancy graphics work. It uses DX to do this. Whilst on XP you can have a DX app running in a window at the same time a GL one running in another window, you can't have both using the same window. Aero with it's fancy DX calls will *be* the DX app, so you can't have GL inside it, hence either full screening your GL app (Aero DX app now doens't have the rendering context), or you run a gl wrapper which is actually calling DX so you are able to share the context.

So this clears it up a bit... I think it will be in the end the Graphic vendors who will have to adopt, cause Aeroglas can't adopt from design - so this OpenGL layer above is (sorry to say that) the best vendor-independent-way possible

Arne

[tom]

So what we have to ask ourself:

When do we get D3D in J2SE?

That would rule

Nah that wouldn't really be a solution, cos what about linux and mac users? They would still be bound to use OGL, and I think nobody would make games for a linux and mac only market !! Even if it would rock if there would be a really good fun game that runs only at Linux and Mac, so more people would move away from Windows !! 

F**k linux. Sc**w mac. All we need is windows 

[blahblahblahh]

F**k linux. Sc**w mac. All we need is windows 

..except that then the advantage of using java over C# narrows considerably, to the pint that many (myself included) would dump java and move permanently to C#. I don't want to use C# (operator overloading?) but...

[tom]

F**k linux. Sc**w mac. All we need is windows 

..except that then the advantage of using java over C# narrows considerably, to the pint that many (myself included) would dump java and move permanently to C#. I don't want to use C# (operator overloading?) but...

True. If I ever decide to make a real game (highly unlikely), I'll probably use c++. Until then I'll be messing around with Java because it's more fun.