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  Is java falling behind in game development?  (Read 15635 times)
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Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Member




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Reply #30 - Posted 2005-07-27 18:23:03 »

In fact reading back on it it just looks like Sun bashing which is not so good.

I agree.  It is not my intention either.  But please give us something to show that I can spend time and money using their product, Java technology, for an industry "computer gaming" that has a very bright future.

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline ChrisM

JGO Coder


Medals: 1
Projects: 1


END OF LINE.


« Reply #31 - Posted 2005-07-27 18:35:41 »

Note however that PS3 will be blue-ray compatable and the blue-ray spec requires a VM...

So if the PS3's going to have a Java VM included because of that blue-ray spec (*), doesn't this answer some of the questions?
Of course it depends on what the JVM looks like exactly. Allegedly (mentioned in the other thread) it means some kind of "Personal Basis Profile" based JVM, so no full blown J2SE 1.5 but still ...


(*) Also being discussed in the blue ray thread here...


We have no concrete information WRT to the implementation.  However, even if a JVM is present, that dosen't mean it would automatically be available for anyone's use, depending on how Sony would implement the technology....

-Chris


Offline blahblahblahh

JGO Coder


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http://t-machine.org


« Reply #32 - Posted 2005-07-27 19:07:46 »

The business plan is not the main issue.

I was only replying to your previous comment. I'm sorry, I misunderstood; it sounded as if the business plan was very much the issue. I don't really understand most of what your previous comment was saying, then Sad.

Quote
I don't believe I ever stated that it would take $100M to get Java and games sorted out. 

You keep throwing out "how many billions?" "who will pay billions?" etc. I'm glad we both agree that it's nowhere near billions.

Quote
A quick and dirty estimate, without doing due dillegance, would be over $145K per profile per platform.

Thanks.

Quote
You would have to contact the Java group at Sun to confirm this.  WRT to sharing information that is promised, I would also suggest that you don't throw stones...

Sure, but why are you guys not the ones to be doing the contact, then telling everyone else what it was? Surely that would help your aims?

re: throwing stones...if there's something I've promised but failed, then...what? No-one's ever come back asking for anything from me IIRC Sad.

I only brought it up because it's frustrating that you don't seem to want to share things, nor receive help, yet you go on about how hard it is, and that you have the will to do it, but don't have what you need to get it done.

malloc will be first against the wall when the revolution comes...
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Offline princec

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Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #33 - Posted 2005-07-27 19:56:02 »

You would too, in Chris's position Sad It reminds me of the Emperor of China... ruler of the biggest empire ever to have existed ever.. but totally unable to set foot beyond the walls of the palace.

Cas Smiley

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #34 - Posted 2005-07-27 20:19:47 »

A few comments:

(1) Cas.  I empathize with you.  I think your first post was 100% reasonable given what you can see from the outside.  I suspect I'd have very simialr feelings sitting in that chair.  Ofcourse the same reaosn it looks that way ios also why I can't go into details as to what has really gone on.  Suffice it to say if Chris or I ran the zoo (or Doug for that matter) the world would look *very* different today. 

(2) BBB.  I usually don't bother to correct you much these days, but Im going to try here. You totally mis-read and misunderstood the point.  The point was NOT that it would take billiosn of dollars to make happen. The point is that Sun has to track every SINGLE dollar as cost v. return.  Those OTHER markets Chris mentioned RETURN billions of dollars.  If you have a defensible business plan that shows how our getting  VMs into the right consumer devices will RETURN billions of dollars  I strongly suggest you take it to a venture capitalist as I am SURE they would jump on it and I know Sun would be happy to sell you a J2 license so you can chase those billions yourself.

(3) BBB again. In regards "figures".  I am very overloaded and have been for a long time.  Things fall off my stack.  If there is any publicly  viewable figure that you need from me that i haven't produced, please remind me and I'll see what I can do.

(4) All: On Blue-ray.  We can hope. My personal fear is that running Blue-ray menus will be sucha  low end application that Sony will cheap out and throw some kind of slow but cheap interpreter at it and call it done.  Unfortunately I have zero visibility into what Sony is doing or how they are making decisions. *sigh*

(5) All:  Believe me, we understand your frustration.  If you can, imagine how we feel because I promise you its an roder of magnitude bigger....





Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #35 - Posted 2005-07-27 20:23:17 »


I only brought it up because it's frustrating that you don't seem to want to share things, nor receive help, yet you go on about how hard it is, and that you have the will to do it, but don't have what you need to get it done.

In case I didnt make this clear above...

We appreciate the help of the community. You guys have made the game APIs what theya re today and we are extremely greatful.

In this case however, the part that is hard you are absolutely unable to help with.

Edit:  I take it back.  There is one, and only one, way you could chnage the situation.
Write a killer AAA blockbuster hit title in Java.
One so good that Sony and Microsoft are both desperate to have it on their platform.
You do that and all the problems go away

But don't ask us for funding to do it. We're not in that position.  If we were, we wouldnt have all the problems we have to start with.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Member




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Reply #36 - Posted 2005-07-27 22:00:47 »

Edit:  I take it back.  There is one, and only one, way you could chnage the situation.
Write a killer AAA blockbuster hit title in Java.
One so good that Sony and Microsoft are both desperate to have it on their platform.
You do that and all the problems go away

One question and one comment:
Would it have to be a full game or could we produce a killer real-time animation like a trailer or game demo?
Sun would have to improved the technology, JVM, Java3D, JOGL, JOAL, JINPUT, etc. to produce a game that would interest Sony and/or MS.  Would you agree?

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #37 - Posted 2005-07-27 22:41:20 »

Edit:  I take it back.  There is one, and only one, way you could chnage the situation.
Write a killer AAA blockbuster hit title in Java.
One so good that Sony and Microsoft are both desperate to have it on their platform.
You do that and all the problems go away

One question and one comment:
Would it have to be a full game or could we produce a killer real-time animation like a trailer or game demo?

It would have to be a full game.  The objective here is to put the console manufaturer in the position of either getting a VM on their platform or losing the potential revenue they would get from sales of the game on their platform,

Its not a question of technology.  The technology argument is won.  Its a question of financials.

Quote
Sun would have to improved the technology, JVM, Java3D, JOGL, JOAL, JINPUT, etc. to produce a game that would interest Sony and/or MS.  Would you agree?

No, I most emphatically would not.

The J2SE Hotspot server VM gives you C++ level performance today and the same hardware access you can get from C/C++.  As of JDK1.5 there arent even any real garbage collection issues.

JOGL is a full, fast OGL 2.0 binding.

JInput gvies you everything you need in the way of controller discovery and polling.

JOAL is a full, fast binding to OpenAL.

AND if you prefer you have the alternative of LWJGL.

You have all you need from a technical standpoint.  This has been more then adaquately proved by the work of developers like Cas, the Oddlabs guys, Shawn Kendall at Fullsail and Agency 9.

What is missing primarily is the budget for these guys to DO a serious triple A title. Alas, we don't have an answer for you, there.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline princec

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« Reply #38 - Posted 2005-07-27 23:35:39 »

It's not just the budget, it's the connections and marketing spend that really make a AAA title, not so much the game itself. I'm pretty sure a decent competitor to whatever Blizzard are coming up with next is entirely within the realms of even a determined bunch of indies but it will have such pathetic branding potential it's going nowhere. Again, not something Sun can help with (Sun Games? Who?)
Quote
As of JDK1.5 there arent even any real garbage collection issues.
Heh, check Performance Tuning thread on the continuing bugbear of the kernel blocking problem in 1.5 that makes the entire system jerk Smiley

Cas Smiley

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #39 - Posted 2005-07-28 00:43:47 »

It's not just the budget, it's the connections and marketing spend that really make a AAA title, not so much the game itself. I'm pretty sure a decent competitor to whatever Blizzard are coming up with next is entirely within the realms of even a determined bunch of indies but it will have such pathetic branding potential it's going nowhere. Again, not something Sun can help with (Sun Games? Who?)
Quote
As of JDK1.5 there arent even any real garbage collection issues.
Heh, check Performance Tuning thread on the continuing bugbear of the kernel blocking problem in 1.5 that makes the entire system jerk Smiley

Cas Smiley

Yah I skimmed that thead.

Whats odd is i saw no signs of this in either my work porting the Agency9 Megacrops demo for GDC  (and my quiack and dirty networkign port was generating a ton of short-lived garbage) or in JNWN which Im doing with the pre-release Mustang.

Is it possible this is something thats just ocurred with one of the latest 1.5 releases? or that it takes an usual usage pattern to create?

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Games published by our own members! Check 'em out!
Legends of Yore - The Casual Retro Roguelike
Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #40 - Posted 2005-07-28 03:22:45 »

In my case the issue wasn't there until switching to Java 5.  We tested 1.5.0_01, _03, and _04 and the problem appears to be in all of those.  The nature of the issue made it slow to find.

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #41 - Posted 2005-07-28 06:50:04 »

Id be curious if its reproducible in 1.6  (mustang)

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline jfelrod1960

Junior Member




Use the source Luke, use the source!!!


« Reply #42 - Posted 2005-07-28 16:45:58 »

Quote
Sun would have to improved the technology, JVM, Java3D, JOGL, JOAL, JINPUT, etc. to produce a game that would interest Sony and/or MS.  Would you agree?

No, I most emphatically would not.

The J2SE Hotspot server VM gives you C++ level performance today and the same hardware access you can get from C/C++.  As of JDK1.5 there arent even any real garbage collection issues.

JOGL is a full, fast OGL 2.0 binding.

JInput gvies you everything you need in the way of controller discovery and polling.

JOAL is a full, fast binding to OpenAL.

AND if you prefer you have the alternative of LWJGL.

You have all you need from a technical standpoint.  This has been more then adaquately proved by the work of developers like Cas, the Oddlabs guys, Shawn Kendall at Fullsail and Agency 9.

What is missing primarily is the budget for these guys to DO a serious triple A title. Alas, we don't have an answer for you, there.

Sounds like you're a little sensitive to this issue and personally I don't care if you are or not, but I am not trying to be insulting or offensive about this so I apologize if you feel that way.  But looking at the new games that are coming out with PS3 and XB360 and how game developers are going to take advantage of the multi-core processors by adding more multi-threading, gpgpu processing, etc.  I still wonder if Java is up to speed.  Maybe you're right.  I'm not saying you're not.  Like I said.  This is just frank communication.  I support the use of Java for gaming just like you.  I just want to know that I have a fighting chance.

Jeffrey F. Elrod
Complexsive Systems
Offline erikd

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Medals: 16
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Maximumisness


« Reply #43 - Posted 2005-07-28 17:14:50 »

Quote
Edit:  I take it back.  There is one, and only one, way you could chnage the situation.
Write a killer AAA blockbuster hit title in Java.
One so good that Sony and Microsoft are both desperate to have it on their platform.
You do that and all the problems go away

This is a bit like the "who came first: the chicken or the egg" kind of situation, don't you think?
Will some company (or group of indies) invest in writing a killer AAA title, hoping Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo are going to make java available on their platform?
Will Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo make java available on their platform, just in case someone would write a killer AAA title in java which they are dying to get on their platform?
I'm guessing the answer to both questions is "no", leaving java in the current status quo.

Offline princec

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Medals: 339
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« Reply #44 - Posted 2005-07-28 17:19:15 »

The answer lies in looking at how the other guys bootstrapped it. Basically the owner of the technology pumped a ton of money into making sure they got their technology where they wanted it and that people used it. They also executed on their plans pretty quickly and even more importantly they got the hype machine running at full steam beforehand.

Without the bootstrapping from Sun you can more or less conclude it isn't going to happen.

Cas Smiley

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #45 - Posted 2005-07-28 20:09:15 »

Quote
Edit:  I take it back.  There is one, and only one, way you could chnage the situation.
Write a killer AAA blockbuster hit title in Java.
One so good that Sony and Microsoft are both desperate to have it on their platform.
You do that and all the problems go away

This is a bit like the "who came first: the chicken or the egg" kind of situation, don't you think?
(The egg came first. Whatever layed the egg was not a chicken, the egg contained the genetic mutation that separated the chicken from whatever it's parents were.)

I think Chris is saying that the Killer Game(s) must be written for PC/Mac/Linux and be so popular that the console makers want it ported to their systems, thus giving them incentive to have a Java Runtime on their console.

I think the PC game market is still there.  It seems to be able to evolve faster than the console market, since PCs capbilities change more frequently than console capabilities.  So the end result is that the most "cutting edge" games should show up on a PC first anyway.  E.g. Doom 3.

Offline swpalmer

JGO Coder




Where's the Kaboom?


« Reply #46 - Posted 2005-07-28 20:46:19 »

Id be curious if its reproducible in 1.6  (mustang)


The GC activity is significantly different using the same options with Mustang b43.

check this out,  I've been trying to put together a test case...
Here it is running on 1.5.0_03
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C:\DevJava\BugReports>"c:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_03\bin\java" -XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC -XX:+PrintGCDetails -XX:+PrintGCTimeStamps  -cp . JVMCrash
0.000: [GC 0.000: [ParNew: 3967K->0K(4032K), 0.0200582 secs] 3967K->1066K(16320K), 0.0205862 secs]
10.541: [GC 10.541: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0104868 secs] 5034K->1395K(16320K), 0.0109198 secs]
32.334: [GC 32.335: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0151047 secs] 5363K->1522K(16320K), 0.0155206 secs]
54.148: [GC 54.149: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0140430 secs] 5490K->1663K(16320K), 0.0145384 secs]
75.734: [GC 75.735: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0071965 secs] 5631K->1823K(16320K), 0.0077193 secs]
97.746: [GC 97.747: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0114971 secs] 5791K->1940K(16320K), 0.0119415 secs]
119.838: [GC 119.839: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0141531 secs] 5908K->2056K(16320K), 0.0146701 secs]
141.901: [GC 141.901: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0155667 secs] 6024K->2171K(16320K), 0.0161009 secs]
163.354: [GC 163.355: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0158057 secs] 6139K->2378K(16320K), 0.0163267 secs]


Here is the exact same code running on Mustang b43:
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C:\DevJava\BugReports>java  -XX:+UseConcMarkSweepGC -XX:+PrintGCDetails -XX:+PrintGCTimeStamps  -cp . JVMCrash
0.000: [GC 0.000: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0174371 secs] 3968K->953K(16320K), 0.0181594 secs]
28.058: [GC 28.058: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0151061 secs] 4921K->1110K(16320K), 0.0154193 secs]
69.326: [GC 69.327: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0135772 secs] 5078K->1113K(16320K), 0.0139347 secs]
110.623: [GC 110.624: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0148840 secs] 5081K->1114K(16320K), 0.0152321 secs]
151.814: [GC 151.814: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0131889 secs] 5082K->1115K(16320K), 0.0135931 secs]
193.205: [GC 193.206: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0138703 secs] 5083K->1117K(16320K), 0.0142879 secs]
234.612: [GC 234.613: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0150744 secs] 5085K->1118K(16320K), 0.0155725 secs]
273.818: [GC 273.819: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0131767 secs] 5086K->1120K(16320K), 0.0137323 secs]
312.053: [GC 312.054: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0141546 secs] 5088K->1122K(16320K), 0.0146340 secs]
350.398: [GC 350.398: [ParNew: 3968K->0K(4032K), 0.0151758 secs] 5090K->1123K(16320K), 0.0156526 secs]

Notice the frequency of the collections, and the rate at which the second set of numbers around the "->" grows.
This test generates no objects that should live longer than about one second.  At least not in the test code itself.  I think in the JRE code some long-lived objects are accumulatng... maybe some weak map or something?
1  

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #47 - Posted 2005-07-28 22:06:32 »

Quote
Edit:  I take it back.  There is one, and only one, way you could chnage the situation.
Write a killer AAA blockbuster hit title in Java.
One so good that Sony and Microsoft are both desperate to have it on their platform.
You do that and all the problems go away

This is a bit like the "who came first: the chicken or the egg" kind of situation, don't you think?
(The egg came first. Whatever layed the egg was not a chicken, the egg contained the genetic mutation that separated the chicken from whatever it's parents were.)

I think Chris is saying that the Killer Game(s) must be written for PC/Mac/Linux and be so popular that the console makers want it ported to their systems, thus giving them incentive to have a Java Runtime on their console.


Well it was me, not Chris, but spot on.

Quote

I think the PC game market is still there.  It seems to be able to evolve faster than the console market, since PCs capbilities change more frequently than console capabilities.  So the end result is that the most "cutting edge" games should show up on a PC first anyway.  E.g. Doom 3.

+1

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #48 - Posted 2005-07-28 22:12:37 »

Two questions and pardon my ignorance at reading this output but ilamost nevre loo katt he raw GC dump like this...

(1)  What happens if you DONT specify concurrent GC but just use the dafault (which is what I always run with.)

(2) Are those last numbers the pause?  And th first the time it staretd at?  If so, I see a hit of les then 2/100ths of a second every 20 to 40 seconds.  Why is this a problem?  Am I misreading something?

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline erikd

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« Reply #49 - Posted 2005-07-28 23:04:28 »

Quote
I think the PC game market is still there.  It seems to be able to evolve faster than the console market, since PCs capbilities change more frequently than console capabilities.  So the end result is that the most "cutting edge" games should show up on a PC first anyway.

Good point, and sure the PC market is still there. But maybe one good reason those 'Cutting Edge' games were written in a language like C/C++ is because then they have a chance to be portable to consoles later? When I look at the shelves, I think AAA titles *are* a minority on PC's compared to consoles even though PC's are generally more capable.
Being both cutting edge and daring (e.g. dev. in java) is maybe a bit much to ask? As far as I can see, 'daring' is still a word investors don't like very much.

Offline erikd

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« Reply #50 - Posted 2005-07-28 23:12:36 »

Quote
E.g. Doom 3.

I see your point, but Doom3 is a bad example. It was going to sell in huge numbers anyway even though it would be PC only at first, having the ID/John Carmack names on their side. So there was virtually no risk involved.
Using java will always be an added risk of losing market potential as long as there's no java on consoles.

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #51 - Posted 2005-07-28 23:20:35 »

Quote
I think the PC game market is still there.  It seems to be able to evolve faster than the console market, since PCs capbilities change more frequently than console capabilities.  So the end result is that the most "cutting edge" games should show up on a PC first anyway.

Good point, and sure the PC market is still there. But maybe one good reason those 'Cutting Edge' games were written in a language like C/C++ is because then they have a chance to be portable to consoles later?

I really don't think so.  Generally porting something cutting edge to a console requries pretty ,ajor rewriting since up til now the graphics hadrware has been so unique on the consoles.

Rather, I think they are coded in C/C++ because almost everything is still.  And for the same reasons-- its a known quanitity.  It takes a brave person to try new tools on a game project, especially one that is also trying to cut new technical ground in other areas.

Quote
When I look at the shelves, I think AAA titles *are* a minority on PC's compared to consoles even though PC's are generally more capable.

Hmm. i dont see that at all. I see something else-- the accessability of the PC ADDS a flood of lower grade titles to the shelves.  Take those away so they dont distract yo uand I thik the total number of AAA titles on any one paltform, PC or Console, is about the same.

Take awy from Consoles the numebr of AAA title that are ports of older PC AAA titles and I thin kthe PC proibably pulls out ahead by a tiny bit (but not a lot today. This was more true  in the past.)

HOWEVER to get to the nub of SWP's point, look at where the *new* ground is being cut, and youll generally see it on the PC first.

Quote
Being both cutting edge and daring (e.g. dev. in java) is maybe a bit much to ask? As far as I can see, 'daring' is still a word investors don't like very much.

And here I agree. It IS a  lot to ask.  But thats what being on the cutting edge is about.  The risk adverse dont do it.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline Jeff

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Got any cats?


« Reply #52 - Posted 2005-07-28 23:22:38 »

Quote
E.g. Doom 3.

I see your point, but Doom3 is a bad example. It was going to sell in huge numbers anyway even though it would be PC only at first, having the ID/John Carmack names on their side. So there was virtually no risk involved.
Using java will always be an added risk of losing market potential as long as there's no java on consoles.

No, your missing the other side of the equation.
If its a big enough hit on the PC it will *force* there to be Java on consoles.

To use your own example, if DOOM3 was in Java, do you think we'd have Java on
all the consoles today? I sure as hell do.

The question is, are you willing to bet on being that big a hit?


Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

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Offline erikd

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« Reply #53 - Posted 2005-07-28 23:26:51 »

Quote
I really don't think so.  Generally porting something cutting edge to a console requries pretty ,ajor rewriting since up til now the graphics hadrware has been so unique on the consoles.

Sure, but at least it *can* be done.

Quote
Rather, I think they are coded in C/C++ because almost everything is still.  And for the same reasons-- its a known quanitity.  It takes a brave person to try new tools on a game project, especially one that is also trying to cut new technical ground in other areas.

Yes I agree it's probably the most important reason. But don't you think portability is still a consideration to stick with C++ and not go for java?

Offline princec

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Exp: 16 years


Eh? Who? What? ... Me?


« Reply #54 - Posted 2005-07-28 23:35:31 »

(Move GC thread comments back to that other thread!)

Cas Smiley

Offline erikd

JGO Ninja


Medals: 16
Projects: 4
Exp: 14 years


Maximumisness


« Reply #55 - Posted 2005-07-28 23:38:01 »

Quote
No, your missing the other side of the equation.
If its a big enough hit on the PC it will *force* there to be Java on consoles.

To use your own example, if DOOM3 was in Java, do you think we'd have Java on
all the consoles today? I sure as hell do.

The question is, are you willing to bet on being that big a hit?

No, I'm not missing the point, I'm just adding to the discussion. Maybe just to get my own views clear  Smiley

I agree 100% with you here, but I think it was a bad example because there was no point for Doom3 to be written in java. There was no risk in Doom3 because they are no new players and they had a huge codebase at their disposal, Doom3 being just an incremental step in the ID FPS range (not denying it is rather cutting edge).
I'd rather take Farcry as an example. Or Half-Life 2 (Because afaik, they created a completely new engine anyway, so java could have made sense there).

Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #56 - Posted 2005-07-29 00:27:53 »

Quote
No, your missing the other side of the equation.
If its a big enough hit on the PC it will *force* there to be Java on consoles.

To use your own example, if DOOM3 was in Java, do you think we'd have Java on
all the consoles today? I sure as hell do.

The question is, are you willing to bet on being that big a hit?

No, I'm not missing the point, I'm just adding to the discussion. Maybe just to get my own views clear  Smiley

I agree 100% with you here, but I think it was a bad example because there was no point for Doom3 to be written in java. There was no risk in Doom3 because they are no new players and they had a huge codebase at their disposal, Doom3 being just an incremental step in the ID FPS range (not denying it is rather cutting edge).

Well it really depends on how muich of that cdoe was brand new v. just an incremental improvement.

I agree that having a workable existing codebase lessens your advantage in changing any technologies
at all because there is a cost in codebase loss.  At some point though you hit an inflection point anyway
wher you DO have to throw out a large portion of your codebase.   Thsoe are good times to evaluate
new technologies.


Quote
I'd rather take Farcry as an example. Or Half-Life 2 (Because afaik, they created a completely new engine anyway, so java could have made sense there).

Makes sense to me, and the same logic still applies. IF  Half-Life2 had been a Java program then there is no doubt Sony would do everything in their power to make sure there was a Java VM available to run it.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #57 - Posted 2005-07-29 00:34:38 »


Yes I agree it's probably the most important reason. But don't you think portability is still a consideration to stick with C++ and not go for java?

I think it depends  on the project.

If I were doing a game today where I had idnetified one of my primary targets as a console then yes, the irionic
thing today is that in that case Java loses in the portability area.

If I were doing a game whre my primary target was the desktop then I dont think I'd worry about this.  If my game is a big enough hit to warrant the costs of targeting a console as an after-thought then I'd assume I'll have the leverage to demand Java. 

The big thing to remember here is that, unelss I design up front for the limits and peculiaritites of both console and PC, IMO the work of doing such a port wil be enormous no matter what.  Its going to likely mean major redesign  of both the graphics system and the user interface so its not going to happen unless Im a mega-hit.

Frankly, if all else failed, a port could be a completely new graphics engine in C for the platofrm, and a PD Java interpreter for the game logic.  I dont think doing such an after-thought port of a C program will be any less work.

This is my experience in the industry, YMMV.




Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
Offline zero

Junior Member





« Reply #58 - Posted 2005-07-29 01:13:57 »

I just wanted to throw in an article from next genration, citing Valve boss Gabe Newell on porting code to the next generation of consolses (xbox360, ps3) with a multicore processor architecture:
Quote
Technologically, I think every game developer should be terrified of the next generation of processors. Your existing code, you can just throw it away. It's not going to be helpful in creating next generation game titles

IMHO this is another good reason for relying on sophisticated VMs / Runtimes, which let game developers focus new algorithms and game concepts instead of bugging with each different hardware architecture.




Offline Jeff

JGO Coder




Got any cats?


« Reply #59 - Posted 2005-07-29 05:57:03 »

Yeah, the next generation your gonna have 3 choices...

(1) Use a VM built by rocket scientists

(2) Use a game engine built by rocket scientists

(3) Go back to school for an intensive course in rocket science.

That being said, ofcourse Valve has a vested interest in people going to engines.  Nonetheless I dont think hes being
totally phony.

Its an opportunity for the right tehnology, theres no doubt about that.  The question  that stands is when will one of those parties with a vested interest in making the VM technology happen, make it happen.

And you don't know how badly I wish I had an answer for all of you to that question.

Got a question about Java and game programming?  Just new to the Java Game Development Community?  Try my FAQ.  Its likely you'll learn something!

http://wiki.java.net/bin/view/Games/JeffFAQ
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