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1  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: What's your favourite IDE? on: 2006-02-15 17:52:02
You can do module tweaking, NetBeans has allot of stuff out of the box that you don't need to do game programming. Plus one year ago NetBeans was totally different.

I have found Eclipse a bit faster in startup, but other than that they are both memory hogs, all java IDEs suffer from this problem.

I am not saying to switch to netbeans, if you are productive with Eclipse, but NB has allot to offer, specially for j2me coding,  just give it another try to see if those issues are gone.
2  Game Development / Newbie & Debugging Questions / Re: java mobile phones programming on: 2006-01-11 19:52:56
In that case,

Don't use device specific APIs in your code (almost impossible for good performance) or use pre-processor to deal with the differences.

The distribution process is similar to all phones.
3  Game Development / Newbie & Debugging Questions / Re: I'm new and I do not know how to start... on: 2006-01-09 16:38:50
If you want to develop games for j2me (mobile devices) then you are best to use www.netbeans.org with mobility pack.

Even if you want to do j2se games you should see if NetBeans 5.0 is not the best IDE for you, it is a very important step (getting the right tools).

If you know java language then you will be able to easily find your opengl skills a plus wend using LWJGL, if you don't know java read a primer on it, you will find some similarities between it and C++, but also many and important differences. I like books so i recommend you read:

one of the many beginning java books they are so many i will not even list them and one of these 2 books

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1592730051/103-3650030-3671862?v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1584503262/ref=pd_sim_b_4/103-3650030-3671862?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

All the Best,
Dan
4  Game Development / Newbie & Debugging Questions / Re: tools and softwares required for mobile phone game development. on: 2006-01-09 16:21:44
please i will like to know the softwares step by step required for mobile phone games development

2. i will like to get source codes on a simple mobile phone game ,,so i can start up from there

3. how can i use the software downloaded? where will i start from imputing codes

Ok once you have the software downloaded and installed - install jvm, install NB first, then mobility pack, then SDKs/emulators. NB will find the emulators on its own, if it does not then there is an option to find them.

After you have all installed you can start to see some code that comes with mobility pack, start NB go to new project (a wizard window pops up) and select samples->mobile->midp1 or midp2 ->various games there you will find the source to the most popular computer game ever (WORMS) and other puzzle games.

You can also start programming simply select new project-> mobile->mobile application. And start coding it's that simple.

You can also look at a more complex game Marv the Miner from digiment.no example here: http://www.digiment.no/index.jsp?category=downloads&sub=2

hope this helps, if you have more specific question go ahead and ask them, this is the place to place them don't be embarrassed, I and the rest of the forum, will do our best to help.
5  Game Development / Newbie & Debugging Questions / Re: java mobile phones programming on: 2006-01-06 17:37:32
Java for mobile phones (J2ME) is very different from java on desktops (J2SE).
OK let me give you a few pointers...

Stuff you will need:
You will need to have a java environment (JVM) on your PC and download the Wireless Toolkit.(java.sun.com).
You will want to use NetBeans for your wireless development, NetBeans 5.0 Beta2 and Mobility Pack5.0 Beta2 (www.netbeans.org).

With these tools you are now able to write games for a mobile platform, but most manufactures have extensions so you might want to download the SDKs from there sites.
http://www.forum.nokia.com/main.html
http://developer.sonyericsson.com/

The NetBeans Mobility pack has some simple examples and games that can help to get started, you might also want to grab some source code from many sites (just use a search engine and you will find a game that you like to dissect).

Also there are many books about the subject, like (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1592001181/103-3650030-3671862?v=glance&n=283155).
Also SUN has several articles that help to understand the platform, just go to: http://developers.sun.com/techtopics/mobility/allarticles/

There are also tools that help with the device fragmentation problem, like J2ME Polish.

Good luck and if you need further help just post away,
All the Best,
-Dan
6  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Starting a persomnal Wiki page on: 2005-12-07 13:09:54
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i get sad wend i have a voice only call, or get a simple SMS
It seems as if you've forgot what mobile phones were originally build for...
To communicate i believe, the only diffs is that now we communicate with pictures, video, audio, not just voice, but other media, not just real-time but also in other time modes, not only with humans in a p2p way, but also with other systems (like in mobile photo blogs), etc...

To me it is a tool to communicate.

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So why then do we call those things still mobile phones, why not "all-around-tool, with wich you can make phone calls", if phoning has gotten so unimportant nowadays?

EDIT: It seems it's not only the US - I'm from Germany (just wanted to mention that)

Why do we call PCs still PCs? Since their first introduction they can do allot more than what was original thought, you can also make phone calls from PCs, What's in a Name? I don't get your point  Undecided

I did not say that "phoning has gotten so unimportant nowadays", phoning to me has no meaning i think in a more abstract (communicate) way and mobile phones are the tool that permit me to think in that way  Wink BTW i do most of my voice calls using my PC (unless i am outside).

Wend waiting in traffic or lines, i always like to play a little with my phone, play a game, check the traffic videocams, do all sorts of stuff that would be unpractical with a notebook (having to boot the notebook, get network access, access the site) and all this having the notebook on your passenger seat, making you look away from the road, people buzzing, etc...) with a mobile phone it is much simpler, allot of stuff you would try to do with a notebook and is unpractical, turn out to be practical with a mobile phone.

Europe is a big place and the network operators differ allot, if you say that 3G is still not at full hype in Germany all i can say is a feel sorry for you guys, maybe you have the wrong operator  Tongue but allot of countries in Europe are already in full 3G mode.

Here are the main operator in Portugal (where i am right now) and my home country, they all have 3G in high gear for quite some time:
Optimus (my operator): http://64.207.158.28/optimus3g/
TMN (the biggest operator ~50% market share): http://www.tmn.pt/3g/
and Vodafone: http://www.vodafone.pt/main/Live/O+que+e+/default

All sites are in Portuguese (but you can look at the pretty pictures) some have English versions.
All operators in portugal have UMTS (3G).
The country had in June 2005 10,721,000 subscribers in total, or a 102.30% penetration rate.
more about in on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mobile_network_operators

There are also discount brands Uzo, Rede4 (virtual operators) from the same operators (for traditional servicies), and subbrands targeted at urban young people Yorn (some plans have 3G services).

But not all is wonderful, we have crappy ISPs that charge allot (monopoly situation), and that hurts high-speed internet in my country, we have traffic limits  Sad and high speed is not that high even though we have 2Mb, 4Mb, 8Mb, 16Mb* (ADSL) starting at 35€ (with 2G international traffic limit) and going up up up in price.

*One operator offers 16Mb but in a very limited area, and i do mean very limited.
7  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Starting a persomnal Wiki page on: 2005-12-06 19:16:56
Hmm. Maybe.  PSP is half-VGA resolution which is part of how theyw ere able to egt away with cutting RAM from the PS2 amounts.

I'd like to take a close look at those phone proessor specs.  PSP doesnt get all that much continous use on a single charge (4-6 hours is the estimate.) A phone has to runa lot longer.  If they are really getting PSP level processing out of a cell phone that woudl be pretty amazing power consumption.

You can take a look on the ARM site http://www.arm.com/products/CPUs/index.html, most 3G phones use ARM processors (many use ARM9) ARM already has processors for mobile devices with cores that range from 1MHz-1GHz, with all sorts of power saving technologies. Usual HighEnd 3G phones run at 200MHz and more.

Most phones also have smaller Screens than HVGA, with all sort of standby modes, etc... that's why the bat. last longer on Phones than on devices like PSP (that only are useful wend ON, playing something game/video/music).

But battery is a big issue, if you would go on a head to head challenge in battery life with a similar game in a 3G phone VS PSP the phone would most probably die on you sooner, (hum someone somewhere must have made that comparision i have to see if i can find an article about that  Undecided ).

You can get phones with large memory from sonyErcisson just check out the specs: http://developer.sonyericsson.com/site/global/products/phones/phonegallery/p_phonegallery.jsp

About Memory I wonder how much performance difference there really is beetween Main Memory and Secondary Memory in phones, because usually the RAM chips used in mobile phones are not the fastest (helps save bat.), BUS speed is also slow (but this differs allot from model to model).

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I am not familiar with that phone, but since it is a 2003 model it is probably outdated, also Samsung does not have the best performance.

-Its typical of the US market today I am afraid.

You guys need to get up to speed even my 56y old uncle has a SonyEricsson K750i (32Mb, JSR184, 2.0Mpxl cam, etc...)  Grin

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Nope.  Not any more.  In general J2SE Java eprformance speed-wise is eqvuivaklent to C and has been for a couple generations of J2SE now.  I can show you specific test cases in which, for one reaosn or another, Java actually beats the pants off C.  (For some reason anyone I knwo who has done a FFT C v. Java face off finds the Java wins by quite a margin and I've seen it happen a few times now.  Thsi has been true since about JDK1.3, but its IS a special case.  Not quite sure why, I just know that it is.)

In general, on any significantly complex program, well written J2SE performs almost identically to well written C.

It is on a case per case situation, but...
I much prefer to use Java and all the tools, great refactoring, etc... than trying to squeeze a marginal performance improvement with tweaks in C or assembly. Java at least to me is not only the language, it is allot more than that and that is why i prefer to use it in J2SE (Desktop enviornments) to any other language (but i must say i am tempted to try using C#3.0 aka LINQ, it looks like a very flexible way to query and present data), but heck i still havent had the time to try all the stuff in 1.5 Tiger I will do that first, latelly all i do is J2ME  Cool

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Honesltly all I do with my phone is make calls.

For games and media, i use a games and media device (currently PSP.)

Until you cna hand me a phone with as good a screen (and in general form factor) as the PSP, I don't really want to use it for that.  Now if one of our partners wanted to GIVE me a top end phone to prove to me what they coudl do, id gladly take it.  But its not worth spending my money on to me.

Phones have good screens, just not the ones you use, CALLS what's that? Grin VideoCalls, Pictures, MMS, Games (thats what i do most with my phone) i get sad wend i have a voice only call, or get a simple SMS  Tongue It looks like you (and the USA) are still stuck in PC time (you guys have crappy operators) but i must admit that it really sucks to have all these hardware diffs in phones there are no form factors, it is changing (Nokia for instance is begining to share screen sizes in Series40, 60, etc... N60, N70, etc... SonyEricsson also has many model with equal screen sizes) but it still is a pain.
8  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Starting a persomnal Wiki page on: 2005-12-06 00:32:44
And 32 MB is still tiny compared to modern consoles and desktops.

Plus with all this talk of memory the OTHER key factor of processor performance is being ignored.   Unless you have some amazing battery technology over there I can;'t imagine its much better then we have here as battery life is the limiting factor on cell-phone processors.

So i don't see where that conflicts with my points at all **shrug**.

Well PSP has 32Mb of memory and most 3G phones already have processors that are comparable to that console (1-333MhZ) some  are even more powerful so i would say that is enough to make games look good (of course you can't really honestly compare a single purpose product like the PSP to a multi-purpose device like a 3G cell phone, just like you can't compare a PC to a Playstation or any other single purpose Console), you already have phones from SonyEricsson with over 256Mb, 300Mb, 400Mb, i still see PCs for sale with 256Mb so and also support for memory cards that make them able to store up to 1-2Gb per mem card.

"Samsung APH-A600" does i have JSR184? I am not familiar with that phone, but since it is a 2003 model it is probably outdated, also Samsung does not have the best performance.

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Are you saying that the average European cell phone is delivering Java performance up to C performance levels?  That I find hard to believe and would like to see proof of...

Not the average European but many (especially the gamer segment that plays 3D games on phones have pretty able machines already) and even more so in the Asian Market (South Korea, Japan, etc...).
 
Well actually it could have similar performance to C if phone makers started using ARM Jazelle Wink, but since that is not going to happen any time soon, the top performance is always going to balance to C side (but that also happens on the J2SE sector so there you go).

Hey thanks for the info on the differences about CDC Hotspot  and CLDC Hotspot base code, that is something i did not know, thank you for the info I learned something from YOU today, so Thanks  Grin

Also i am glad you decided to use current terminology, i will keep an eye up for any inaccuracies or mistakes, and send you feedback.

All the Best,
-Dan

PS: You need a new phone, i recommend the SonyErcisson phones (they look great are feature packed and performe well in most models) the K750i is pretty good, but the upcomming W900 is what you really should aim at if you want cutting edge ( i know ill probably get one  Grin ).
9  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Starting a persomnal Wiki page on: 2005-12-05 10:33:38
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I talk about the VMS. What they are, how they work, and why.  That is the point of the whole peice.  If you missed that then you missed the point.

No i just wish you expanded more, talked about the "platform" that would be a better article and would add value to stuff that is answered in FAQs, this way you would not simply be repeating for your own words info that is already documented in the FAQs, i understand that this was not your goal i am only expressing a wish  Smiley

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Thsi is all outside of the issue of Java VM performance, which again was the issue at hand,

You will note the topic WASNT "whats wrong with J2ME'"...

Well, Hardware also affects the VM performance, VM performance can vary immensely in phones form the same manufacture (even from the same series/platform) because of hardware diffs, so i don't think this it is totally out of order mentioning that hardware differences in phones affect VM performance.

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What I posted is to my (inside Sun) knowledge 100% factual, accurate, and conforms to the Sun official statements on these topics.

If you have a specific reference that shows that anything is actually factually incorrect please present it clearly and how it relates to the point you are critquing and I will have a look at it..

I never said they wore incorrect, just outdated and incomplete...
Well those words wore a bit harsh (my words not yours), but i already mention that you used outdated terms (you should use the current terminology: CDC Hotspot, and CLDC Hotspot, and probably add that it isn't necessary to use any of those machines, that manufacturers and others (can create there own VMs), also add some information comparing KVM to CLDC Hotspot and why it is faster (compiled code vs interpreted code), more than that you should also add information about performance diffs in Java Phones and the factors that dictate that performance (stuff i talked about earlier) and while you are at it add that: Not all Java phones are slow!

Also it is not necessarily true that CLDC is just for "on low-power and low-RAM devices such as most of today's cell-phones", that will create a myth that i am trying right now (like you are doing for J2SE) to break.

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What I have heard i nall this so far in my mind comes down to two things:

(1) "You aren't spouting the future-vision kool-aid" and you are right, I'm not.  Im talking about what people are experiencing on their phones today and why.

Well most of the stuff is not future vision it is here for many people, maybe it is because i am European and we exchange phones like we exchange shirts, but most people i know have pretty capable phones (with cameras and most are JSR184 compliant, and also have good memory sizes), i am not so familiar with the situation in the USA... In Europe and a great part of Asia, Cell phones are already pretty able machines, fast and with large amounts of memory.

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(2) "You arent talking about my issues" and again you are right, I am adressing very specific issues I feel I need to address.  If you want to address these other issues I suggest you get yourself a web page and do so.

Agreed  Grin

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P.S.  By the way... you seem to be very worried about the perception of the Java phone. Honestly, I'm not. I am far more worried about what users' real experiences with the phone are doing to the perception of Java.  I can't make the phone experience better but I CAN help people to understand that they shouldn't dismiss Java just because of what they see  on their phone today.

I had a  long discussion with a number of folks on the Solaris team regarding Java performance where I showed them how every reason they thought Java was slow was based on a  myth or an error. You know what their final comment was, "Well, the only Java I ever see is on my phone and it takes forever to do anything."    Thats the real danger, AFAIAC.

Now that is scary, and that myth should be stopped at all cost (then again it is the cost of having millions of java enable phones it makes the technology visible), people need to be enlightened but with time i think SUN people will be happier with Java in Cell phones than with Java in the Desktop (on the mid-term). You have to understand that i am just trying to stop you creating yet another myth about Java phones (it is my area so yes i am worried).

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P.S.  My impression, for what its worth, is that you have absorbed a fair bit of marketing 'spin' and confused it with technical information.  Its an understandable mistake to make but if you release your stranglehold on that marketing as "fact" you might widen your technical understanding.

My technical understanding regarding J2ME is good IMHO, but then again it is only has good as my sources, and my sources most of the time are you guys at SUN Wink

But also on my own personal experience dealing with these issues.
10  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Starting a persomnal Wiki page on: 2005-12-05 10:33:12
CLDC Hotspot is the marketing name for the latest generation of CVM.

I have no information that it is going to be any better then 85% - 90% the speed of Hotspot.  If you have a pointer that says anything else, I'd be interested in seeing it.

There are 2 VMs targeted to mobile devices: CDC Hotspot (formerly CVM) and CLDC Hotspot (formerly Mounty) they are not the same, In my opinion you should change CVM to CDC Hotspot since it is the name that pops up the most (on Sun and also on Developers web sites) and that people (me included are more familiar with), and i believe that has been dropped according to this FAQ: http://java.sun.com/products/cdc/faq.html CVM is outdated you should instead use CDC Hotspot, Also you should mention CLDC Hotspot since it is more relevant than KVM these days.

The biggest difference that i see is that one supports 16Bit processors (CLDC Hotspot) and the other does not (CDC Hotspot ->32bit).

Also i must also update myself there is a revision of the CLDC Hotspot WP: http://java.sun.com/j2me/docs/pdf/CLDC-HI_whitepaper-February_2005.pdf

Also it should be made clear that: "that the CLDC and CDC specifications do not require the use of the KVM or the CVM, only the use of a VM that adheres to the requirements of the specification in question. While many device manufacturers license the KVM or CVM from Sun Microsystems to serve as the core of their J2ME implementation, they are not required for J2ME compliance. It is a mistake, therefore, to consider the CLDC and KVM as synonymous, and similarly for the CDC and the CVM.", I don't think it is clear on your Wiki pages.

BTW, I don't know where those 85-90% come from? The only thing that i know and care about KVM vs CLDC Hotspot is that it is significantly faster, according to a more recent whitepaper:
 "The execution speed of optimized native code can be up to 50 times faster than the speed of a conventional interpreter. When run in mixed mode (using the adaptive compiler to optimize the frequently used operations and using the optimized bytecode interpreter for infrequently used code), the CLDC HotSpot Implementation system can achieve a performance advantage of approximately 8 to 10 times when compared to traditional bytecode interpreters."

BTW: I have a question since you are inside SUN and have access to the relevant information and people, is the CLDC Hotspot just a trimmed down Version of the CDC Hotspot or is it the other way around? Is CDC a pumped up CLDC HotSpot? Are they based on the same source code? 

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True but developers have to target the lions-share of the market.  The target phones are still much smaller.  This is why I talk about such phones as "next egenration." They may be available now but they are not yet the target market. Furthermore, the primary audiance of my peice are people *using* their phones and seeing a slow Java.  I am explaining to them why that is what they see and why it is not represetative of Java anywhere but on those phones.

Well that depends on your market target I for instance am targeting JSR184 enabled phones and most phones with 3D capabilities have already pretty good memory capabilities(but that is another story, another time), this is a very dynamic topic and vary allot, you should mention that java phone performance varies allot from phone to phone and explain the causes (memory heap size and memory speed being part of the problem), that would make for better enlighten people, and explain that not all java phones are slow, this way you will not perpetuate yet another myth that java phones are slow.

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The networks are also promised to improve but you are right that is stil in the "coming soon" phase.  Unlike the phoenes though there won't be as much of a lag getting it into people's hands so long as theya re abckward compatible with the existing handsets.

It is however otuside the bounds of the subject I was talking about-- which is why the VMs are the way they are on cell phones.

As a seperate topic of "what are the impediments to online games on the mobile handset" it absolutely has merit as an issue,

Not only would it be valid for that topic but also to explain why the typical Java Game is 250K or less.

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Again I am talking about the VMs.  This is outside the scope of VM performance.

I also frankly don't buy the argument that "with a good GPU VM performance doesn't matter." If that were true then the next generation consoles ( and modern PCs) would all have very low cost low power CPUS-- but they don't.  The CPU keeps on expanding its power along with the GPU and game devleopers always find ways to use that power.  Once upon a time they used it for graphcis rendering. Now they use it for complex AI and physics.

Well i did not make that argument "with a good GPU VM performance doesn't matter", I only mention GPUs because it is one of the things that can make java games depend less on VM speed and have better looking games (shaders, etc...) that is comparable to games being played on the Gizmo and PSP consoles, but until the networks get fast this also is an issue for J2ME, better looking games usually mean bigger file sizes.

But i agree with you, it also means that the CPU will be available to do more complex physics and AI, this way we wont have to scale down the desktop/console physics to use in mobile devices (this is what happens now, wend physics is ported it is simplified).

BTW, i have already played 3D games that are up to par in terms of performance and graphics to some of the best handheld consoles (Nintendo DS, still not PSP level but close).


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Throughout his blog he says "Java" NOT "J2ME/CLDC.  Many many people think he is talking about Java  in general.  Either he thinks he is talking about Java  in general, or he writes very badly.  Take your pick, I don't really care which it is-- it needs to be put into proper perspective which is what I do.

People that jump to that conclusion just read the Big Print and not the article, i have read the article and it is pretty clear that he is talking about J2ME which is part of the Java ecosystem, but you put it in good perspective highlighting just that and that is a good thing  Smiley

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I think YOU do him a disservice now.  Three years ago at Quake con (I was there) a prime point of his speach was "low level bit twiddlign is dead."  He made it very celar that he believed that, as the hardware took over more and more functionality, higher level tools were going to become the preferred norm.

Probably so, but i am not a Carmack Fan, on the other hand I think he was referring to the Desktop and (less so to the Console) arenas, in mobile devices it is unfortunately tweak-a-hoi time and will be for some time (i hope for a small amount of time) Tongue

Continued....
11  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Starting a persomnal Wiki page on: 2005-12-05 07:59:15
Well there is some good stuff in those pages, here is my constructive criticism...

You might want to add some bits of information that are more up to date about J2ME since most of the stuff you talk about is 2-3year old (you PC people are still stuck in PC time, things move faster in Cell time Wink ), there is no mention to CLDC Hotspot (that is the VM that is coming out in phones today i.e. Nokia S60 platform, etc...), you always talk about memory problems (what kind of memory ?!? Heap Size Yes, Storage NO), many phones coming out NOW have more than 64Mb+ (this varies allot from low-to high end phones), my own day to day phone that i have been using for more than a year now has 41MB of Shared memory and Max JAR Size: Unlimited (but depending on available storage), many also support memory sticks (2Gb), etc... the real problems is that networks are very slow even 3G networks so download size is a big problem not JAR size or Memory Size in general (you should be more specific).

Also you don't mention Mobile GPUs (OpenGL ES, JSR184, JSR239) you make it sound like J2ME is so limited that it can't do anything good, and it can in a much easier way than BREW, and that is even worse than what Carmack said about J2ME and not J2SE, he is right in many things (especially about the Hardware/Performance of cell phones compared to GBA) and he is only talking about J2ME, not java in general (you make it sound like he is judging the Java platform in general) i think that is pretty clear on his blog entry, but for a person that is used to code at the lowest level and have total control of Hardware it is obvious that this environment is not for people like Carmack, also with JSR184 (and possibly JSR239 that is in fact a big mistake overlapping JSR184, but might make the PC->Phone transition easier for OpenGL people like Carmack and many others) it can do 3D in a way that GBA can't, and with Hardware Accelerated JSR184 it will be able to do stuff that is of Desktop/Console quality (within a fixed graphics pipeline way for the moment there are already programmable graphics pipelines for mobile devices, like PowerVR SGX and GoForce 3D but i have yet to see any in action in a cell phone)

You don't talk about real stuff (just theory) like Manufactures platforms and Hardware differences (Memory Speed, BUS speeds, etc... are very slow and very different, there is no real Mobile platform, but several Manufacture custom platforms, that require allot of knowledge of the underlying hardware and API layer (supported JSRs, etc...) to not only squeeze performance but sometimes to make midlets (apps) work properly.

You will better off referring people to the http://java.sun.com/products/cldc/wp/CLDC_HI_WhitePaper.pdf (many number in this paper are also outdated this is Cell time so things are a bit more dynamic and less predictable than in the PC space) and other sources of information about J2ME, what you posted only adds to the confusion, is outdated and incomplete and actually hurts the J2ME community.

I program in both Java(J2ME) and BREW and i much prefer the first option, but i know it's limits (of the "J2ME platform") and shortcomings (you and most of the people here don't admit that it or the java platform for that matter has shortcomings that's just SAD), just because I am not a Fan boy does not make me wrong, this is just my humble opinion (this is a forum it is meant for people to have different opinions and discuss them in the manner they choose, I always try not to be impolite, if you don’t agree simply say so but don’t accuse me of not wanting to learn I am always trying to learn, do you have something to teach (I think so I have learned a couple of stuff from your posts but not about J2ME)? But more important are you willing to learn?

I am an open minded person always willing to learn, on the other hand i am not an English Native so at times my posts can be confusing and in need of clarification, so don't jump to the guns and be patient ("Patience is a high virtue", since you like quotes so much).
12  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: PS3 and GCJ on: 2005-12-02 01:36:26
You just don't make any sense, btw i also code in Brew (got a problem with it?)

I am just to good damn old/tired/bored  for all this fanboy crap, ignore me i will ignore you and we both can live happy.
13  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: PS3 and GCJ on: 2005-12-01 00:52:04
Ok let's get things clear Jeff, by the way i don't get all this forum aggressive behavior, but it is the nature of the beast...

I called it CDC/CDLC profile because  you called it a profile "...grow into the more capable CDC profile. which is much closer to true desktop Java." i thought you understood what i meant, as i understood what you meant by those words it would have been very easy for me to simply say INCORRECT the CDC is not a profile (but i believe that would have been a trolish thing to do since a VM alone cannot be used to run applications), anyone can go to http://java.sun.com/j2me/index.jsp and read all the wonderful definitions for the acronyms that we use:

The Connected Device Configuration (CDC), developed within the Java Community Process (JCP), is a framework for using Java technology to build and deliver applications that can be shared across a range of network-connected consumer and embedded devices, including smart communicators, high-end personal digital assistants (PDAs), and set-top boxes
http://java.sun.com/products/cdc/index.jsp

I work in the J2ME space for the past year, so i am pretty familiar with all the definitions and really don't like to spend my days telling people that oh that is not a profile that is a framework, that is a profile, that not all phones have the same abilities, what JSR are, that phones can use the KVM or Hotspot, etc... i usually refer them to some nice webpages like this one: http://java.sun.com/products/cldc/faqs.html

About platform fragmentation i am only too familiar with it, and that is why i stated that the fragmentation problem is not going away just because phone makers will ship more capable phones in fact with so many extensions and abilities it is only going to get worse and companies like http://www.tirawireless.com/default.htm are here to stay and no amount of memory in phones is going to change that.

"Today much of J2ME is written like C code because of space considerations.  Thats really the only reason.", now this is a statement form someone that clearly does not code in the J2ME world,  space is a problem, but only one of the many, device capabilities/abilities, device differences (screen size, keypad, etc...).

There are already phones capable of playstation+ level from sonyEricsson and others, that use optional JSR184, OpenGL ES from companies like MascotCapsule or Hybrid, there are even phones that have hardware acceleration i don't see your point, the fact is that a GBA system is much less powerful than the current generation of phones but you can do allot more (games can perform better) with it that you can with a mobile phone, at least using only the MIDP profiles (1.0,2.0 gamecanvas etc...) so there is a performance problem that you cannot get around since you have to code for the java platform (this has been discussed by John Carmak on his blog http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/johnc/Recent%20Updates).

"Pardon, but then what are you doing here?" Well i am here to discuss this is a forum is it not? I am not here to be a Fan boy of Sun or Java for that matter, i am here to participate

My only point in my previous post was to say that there is always going to be tweaking to do because of all these extensions and optional packages the first generation of phones used the MIDP1.0 profile and that brought extensions from nokia, and many others it was insufficient, the second generation with MIDP2.0 (gamecanvas, etc...) was still not sufficient, CDC devices that have the personal profile, foundation profile, personal basis profile... blah blah blah are still insufficient, manufacturers are now used to breaking standards and creating extensions (so basically what we have now, and will continue to have is a similar situation to the Microsoft JVM vs Sun JVM on the desktop) and this is BAD, Sun should provide more than CDC hotspot and RI they should do what they did on the desktop space a JRE so that we have on the ME space what we have on the SE desktop space, that is where java brought value, it is not bringing that to the Mobile space and it is going to hurt developers on the long term.

"Im about ready to classify this whole thing as "troll bait" and move on" you are free to do so, i will do the same.
14  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: PS3 and GCJ on: 2005-11-30 23:29:14

Sony ought to concentrate on getting OpenGL onto the PS3 rather than Java.

Cas Smiley

Correct me if I'm wrong, but OpenGL is the tech of choice for PS3.

-Chris


The last information that i have is that PS3 will use OpenGL ES 2.0 with extension more info about it http://www.khronos.org/opengles/2_X/  with cg for shader (since it is an nVidia chip).

I know i had more information on that, but i guess i don't have it bookmarked  Huh
15  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: PS3 and GCJ on: 2005-11-30 03:02:50

I don't want a VM on the PS3, a want an Ahead of Time compilier, like an ordinary one for C++, which compiles Java code to the PS3.

Actually, you don't.  You just thought you did.  Cool

 I hope I've helped clear that misconception up.

JK

I have to agree with Jeff on this one,
You really don't want an AOT or a VM for that matter. Why? Because PS3 specs are never going to change that much, so to run an unnecessary layer of abstraction on top of an architecture that is never going to change does not make much sense performance wise, “cut the middle man”.

Traditional Game programming is all about knowing the design of the system and squeezing every ounce of performance out of the components (well in theory  Roll Eyes ), if you use a VM you need to have a complete compatibility and more than that optimization on all platforms, looking at the actual panorama of desktop VMs that is not the reality and IMHO it is an utopia.

So porting companies can rest assured that they will have loads of work porting from platform to platform, for the next decades.
16  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: PS3 and GCJ on: 2005-11-30 02:53:17
[...]
That is why the idea of a VM is so good to me, and if there was faster hardware to make startup time (the areas where VMs still show disadvantages vs Native).
[...]

Startup time could be masked in this case. Eg you could start showing the loading screen and progress meters (as a static image) prior to actually starting the vm. Once the vm is loaded you can continue to draw it yourself. The felt startup time would be zero then. Wink

For Desktop java games i actually don't see a problem with the VM startup time, even Native games have load times...
What i really dislike is the 30sec that i have to wait to get NetBeans to start  Tongue
17  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: PS3 and GCJ on: 2005-11-30 02:50:21
We need to be careful when we talk to seperate J2SE and J2ME as tpoday theya re very doifferent beasts.

Furthermore you need to destinguish between J2ME/CDC and J2ME/CLDC.  What you really are talking about is J2ME/CLDC.

(Technically, J2ME/CLDC isn't even Java by the Java VM spec as floating point i opstional in J2ME but required by the JVM spec.)

The initial crop of J2ME/CLDC devices were probably the worst possible environment to try to run Java code.  No memory, slow processors, highly inconsistant hardwware.  Ina  very real sense, no J2ME/CLDC program COULD be :"signficantly complex" and thus frankly it brought all of the potnetial weaknesses of Java to the fore while removing most fo its benefits.

What J2ME  people generally see still lags behind the desktop badly in Java technology HOWEVER this is changing as those devices grow into the more capable CDC profile. which is much closer to true desktop Java.

CDC or CLDC that's just the profile, the VM implementations are always going to differ (even with almost all companies using ARM processors), the only way to solve this would be to have a downloadable and installable VM for mobile phones (like we have for the desktop VM - JRE), that way one could chose to have the Default (possibly SUN Mobile VM) or the phone brand Mobile VM.

CLDC is here to stay for a long time.... and even wend CDC devices start to overtake, that will only bring more fragmentation to the market, so basically you end up programming like a low-level programmer (the fragmentation problem is never going to go away) for much worse performance, the java high level abstraction brings nothing of value, in fact it only degrades performance, this solution is broken...
18  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: PS3 and GCJ on: 2005-11-29 15:12:30
VMs are very nice and wend we all have 10+GHz with 1T Ram and no hard discs they will be the only option (a bit of sci-fi Wink ), but One thing that i hate about VMs is the constant tweaking that one has to do  Angry

Nothing to do with VM's. Ask any commercial game developer what they spend most of their time doing (answer: constant tweaking to make it work fast on all the different hardware Wink).

One of the advantages to VM's is that you can do this tweaking once only, and because it's a VM all machines will behave that way, instead of doing it once for every conceivable machine.

EDIT: the problem hilighted above is that the VM itself is not being implemented consistenly from machine to machine; that is normally considered a "bug" Smiley

I know i know Smiley

That is why the idea of a VM is so good to me, and if there was faster hardware to make startup time (the areas where VMs still show disadvantages vs Native).

In theory there would be no need to tweak java code, in practice we spend all the time tweaking especially in J2ME, because in practice almost no one respects the standards or implement them correctly and sometimes the standard is not the best solution, also competitive advantage, etc... all make the VMs break the so called java mantra: “write once run anywhere” (yeah right!) code once tweak many is more like it (still it is better than having to write X completely different versions because of hardware) so java did not solve completely the hardware (architecture compatibility) problem with it's VM, it helped but there are still many tweaks that one has to do  Embarrassed the advantage you mention is unfortunately not real in many cases (but we all know this).
19  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: PS3 and GCJ on: 2005-11-28 19:52:33
I do know that the VM on my G5 seems considerably slower than the equivalent on Windows but it might be my imagination.

Try some benchmarks that don't involve UI.

The one thing that really crawls on the mac is rendering to a BufferedImage that has had GetRaster applied to it.   I got around 40fps on the PC and less than 1fps ( yes thats 'one' fps)  on the mac. 

WOW, that is in need for some serious tweaking  Undecided

VMs are very nice and wend we all have 10+GHz with 1T Ram and no hard discs they will be the only option (a bit of sci-fi Wink ), but One thing that i hate about VMs is the constant tweaking that one has to do  Angry
20  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: What's your favourite IDE? on: 2005-11-26 17:23:46
2 more reasons why jcreator is annoying

-delete a source file use it, but the compiled class file is not removed: this means that you wont get errors when u should when compiling

-just try this: do a search and replace, and then undo it.*

*how can u undo a search and replace and be sure to get back to what u started with Huh

plus it is not open source, i would not be caught using anything other than an open source IDE these days for doing java programming. on the other hand we have intellij that has a pretty good community feedback big fix cycle so there you go, my knowledge of the JCreator (LE version is freeware) is not great i only evaluated it a couple of times and it alwyas looked a bit limited compared to other IDEs that are available in a open source license.

What i like about OSS, especially the NB community is that you send an issue and most of the times you get a bug fix in the next daily build (it works almost like having your own tools team working for you), and if you need to create/modify the code for your own needs (and this happens allot) you can go in and change the code.
21  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: What's your favourite IDE? on: 2005-11-25 20:10:49
Quote
Yeah, jCreator it is good wend you have slow computer (since it is C++) there is no startup impact and no need to tweak a JVM

 Cheesy
 
Quote
also it is a good IDE for people that want to just code simple stuff with not to many wizards, it has a solid feature set (all the basic components are there) but i would not recommend it for everybody

My opinion is a bit different, I will strongly recomend It Wink

I think that heavy IDE hide too much things (like VisualBasic). It also help people to make dirty and incompatible code, It is always good to know what your code do really.

If your project is well designed, you should have only small informations transactions between its entities, and those components will be small and interchangeable. this will enable you to divide your main project in smaller projects and that recursively.

All those little projects can be handle with any kind of editor and for me the simplest (with nevertheless some functions) is the most attractive.

The design of your application is much more important than the editor you use. If you cannot make a project with a simple editor, this means that your project is maybe not well designed.

To finish, I will say that I know that Eclipse is a good IDE, but, starting to learn Java with it is really the worst thing to do.

Bruno

Yes you should always know your code Smiley and using an IDE will only make you learn more, because of the tools like profilers, and debuggers, etc... but lets face it most people don't like (because there is nothing creative to do) in plumbing code and that’s wend IDEs come in handy to enhance productivity and do some of the plumbing code for you, but then again you need to use the right tools for the right job (BTW i don't know why people always bash Visual Basic sometimes it is the best tool for the job and i have no problem working with it, it has very good RAD tools and allows for very fast prototyping).

If you are learning java then you should focus on the language, and most of the stuff you will be doing can be done with a text editor and javac, there is no need to use a full featured IDE like Eclipse/NB/Intellij/JBuilder, etc… but once you start doing refactoring, working in a team environment (Versioning, collab, etc…), working with large projects, the need for an IDE becomes evident, I love IDEs they save me time and effort, and the harder the task the more I like the fact that the IDE has features that will save me time, and make the project more manageable.
22  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: What's your favourite IDE? on: 2005-11-25 16:39:20
Does anybody has tried Jcreator ? It is light and powerful

Bruno

Yeah, jCreator it is good wend you have slow computer (since it is C++) there is no startup impact and no need to tweak a JVM, also it is a good IDE for people that want to just code simple stuff with not to many wizards, it has a solid feature set (all the basic components are there) but i would not recommend it for everybody, it is missing allot of stuff for J2EE and J2ME, and also to develop Web Services...
23  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: What's your favourite IDE? on: 2005-11-24 22:18:02
Yes, of course you can, I already made that point in previous posts (romain guy blog is illustrative) many people are finding this to be a great solution Smiley

Sometimes there is no other option, because they have unique features so if you want the power tools you need to setup, and since more&more tools use ANT it is more and more easy to use these IDEs in conjunction. Again be pragmantic  Grin

And always evaluate, for instance Visual Studio used to have crappy tools for mobile development but right now they have the best tools, no Java IDE not even NB with Mobility Pack can touch it. (it is only a shame that they are for Windows Mobile5.0 and not for Java development).
24  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: What's your favourite IDE? on: 2005-11-24 18:59:04
By the time you've done all that research and talking and thinking about it, you could have completed the task with a sub-perfect IDE Smiley

Kev

I was reluctant to say this but obviously you don't do research in the middle of a project Wink if you spend too much time looking for the right tools then you don't get the job done in the right amount of time but that is a project management problem, not a software problem, I have had situations where i researched for a new way/tool to do something and found a tool automated all the manual work and allowed me to perform better, than if i had used my regular tools did all the work myself (reinventing the wheel) i have had situations where the opposite was true I was not able to finish in time because i did not evaluate the tools capabilities in a proper way.

In the end all that is required is a pragmatic approach if you don't have the time to do the research then your competition might find that time and be able to outperform you, but that has to do with project management. Be informed is the key, just because an IDE does not have a certain feature wend you tried it, or did something in an illogic way, or performed badly don't throw it to the trash can, instead evaluate it again for your next project, of course the tools/IDEs that you use also progresses with time, so you might find there is no need to change but at least you have evaluated the situation and have made an informed decision.

A practical example i used to be a big fan of the Borland IDEs for Java development i was more productive with them but i always keep evaluating other solutions, and right now i still use Borland tools but i develop in NetBeans (i use Borland together for UML/RE). The UML tools in NetBeans (well Java Studio Enterprise) are not good, they are slow, complex, and unintuitive, so right now i am doing what you say i am working with a sub-perfect solution/IDE (Perfect is a strong word for any solution) but it gets the job done in the least amount of time, sometimes i even use C++/ C# to do some tasks because i know i can do the job in a least amount of time using them.

There is no perfect solution, you should evaluate your toolset from time to time, obviously if you are in the middle of a project, and choosing another IDE would improve productivity by 10% it would not be worth the switch, but if productivity would improve drastically then you should consider it (but this is usually an indication that the project is not being well managed, you should have time in your project to evaluate tools, if you don't do this then there are many risks competition might get the features done in a faster way, maintenance costs, etc...

Again this topic has spawned into yet another topic project management, which i will not get to deeper than say that proper evaluation is a key process, finding the right tools for the right job is key to productivity (or knowing the limits of a tool and having proper workarounds use an auxiliary tool, code around the problem etc... sub-perfect solutions like these are the rule in the industry).

There are of course also philosophical question Eclipse uses a plug-in architecture (with views, etc...), NB, Intellij are much more integrated some people like integration others don't.

Just a Point in case: Before NB 5.0 i probably would not use it for form creation but Matisse is a great tool that improves productivity immensely, developing plugins for it was a pain in 5.0 is almost too easy.

There are many others points that can be made to pick one or other IDEs the point is stay informed on new features, keep track of it (but obviously if you are in the middle of a project carefully evaluate any tool before making the switch but that is more of project management issue than any other thing, do you have the time to make the switch? which means a proper evaluation (prototyping, etc...), changing schedules, release dates, etc... is it really worth it, sometimes it is sometimes it isn't, be pragmatic, and sometimes it is not in your hands it is on the project manager (how many times have you used a tool, knowing that there is a better solution but management does not approve of it, or want to change schedules to evaluate, accommodate the switch?).

So in the end my motto still stands use the tool that is right for the job and keep informed on all others, keep evaluating them, especially new releases, so that wend the next project comes along you don’t spend 2 weeks evaluating tools you spend one, or next time your project manager ask you to evaluate/recommend a toolset for the project you have the answer on the tip of the tong, or if you are a project manager you can discuss it with other members of your team (and make a strong case to go against there recommendations).
25  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: What's your favourite IDE? on: 2005-11-24 16:36:19
Let me put this in another way just because a circle fits in the square hole does not mean that it is the right place/shape/tool...



PS: I am not trying to patronize anyone, this is the rational behind my idea (I am only using a visual aid to better express myself), choosing an IDE is like making a shape puzzle game some pieces fit the holes of others but that is not the right way to use them, the same is thru for IDEs sometimes an IDE has similar features to another IDE but it takes you more time to use it, it is less intuitive (makes you less productive), plus it is the picture of a fun game, many Computer games should be has fun as that one Smiley to me finding the right tool for the right job is a similar process to making a puzzle game, only now you need to have allot more information about the "shapes" and you have more options witch makes the process allot harder and more time consuming.
26  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: What's your favourite IDE? on: 2005-11-24 16:15:03
Hi PeterB,

That would be thru if all tools had the same feature set, and only differed in the way you use them, but that is not the case (all IDEs have a common feature set) and then they have unique features, for instance people that never used NB might not now that it has good tools for the development of J2ME applications (with the visual Editor, platform identifications, etc...) but if you are working with both Java and C/C++ code then Eclipse might me a better choice, or people that never used IntelliJ might not now of the tools that it has for DSL (domain specific languages) and excellent refactoring.

Of course you can pretty much get the job done with any IDE it is a simple matter of time and effort, some of these IDEs are better (save you time, have less setup, work in a logical way) than others in certain areas, if you know those areas you can use the IDE that best fits the job and save time, be more productive, or simply create a product that would not have been possible using another IDE (DSL stuff).

In my opinion a developer should always look around, tools are always evolving, new solutions are being developed every day, and sometimes a bad product turns into a great product in the next version (rare but it has happened) thanks to the user community feedback.

This topic now has spawn into another (almost religious debate) that is the ONE IDE vs Multiple IDEs I found many people changing opinions during their developer life, just a few weeks i saw this post from romain guy ( http://weblogs.java.net/blog/gfx/archive/2005/10/twice_the_ide.html ), he used to be an advocate of the ONE IDE and now he found out that he can be more productive by using 2 (Eclipse and NB).

If you are a master of a certain IDE and your problem domain never leaves the areas where that IDE is the Best (where you can be more productive) then you don't need to try other tools (because you know that you can be productive in it) sometimes all you needs is a Phillips screw drive Wink

My final opinion is to always look for new tools/solutions (especially in new released software), and unique features, especially for people whose domain problem changes allot (for instance people that do work in many areas J2SE, J2EE, J2ME, C/C++, Web Development, etc...), in the end "the right tool for the right job" sums up what i wanted to say.

-Still Pragmatic Dan
27  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: What's your favourite IDE? on: 2005-11-22 15:47:45
The one that gets the job done... depends on project, sometimes NetBeans is better, sometimes Eclipse is better, sometimes Visual Studio is better, IntelliJ, etc…

You should know all tools (a mechanic does not use only a Phillips screw drive he has many tools that are used wend they best fit the task at hand.

-Pragmatic Dan.
28  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Autodesk aquires Alias - Cheap Deal $182M on: 2005-10-05 03:14:44
Well looks like this is the BIG news in the industry

Maya and Max are now brothers Tongue

Let's see if they play well together, i see this as great news for Linux and MAC users, they will have more support for Maya.

Hum that was a very good deal for Autodesk, very cheap, i think it would easily reach $250M, why sit on the money? It makes perfect business sense, very nice deal indeed, and kudos to Autodesk management team.

Its good news for all, Alias gets a big slice of the $300M R&D and goes back to it's Research origins, and Autodesk gets more money out of the entertainment industry, and culminates some product failures on the automotive side, and technical illustration.

But i think that the acquisition of a smaller company with more innovative products, companies like luxology and pixologic would have been better news for us the costumers.

There are new paths to trail and using a research power house like alias to trail them and keep the rest of the team on making money is the right move.

Basically they bought a research company, so expect for AutodeskMaya 8 to arrive with some innovation on the character, mocap and asset management side (kaydara), and Autodesk3DS Max 9 to have better asset management and minor tool updates.

Alias engineers will have in their hands a great opportunity to create a new product that makes the production time shorter, developing content is becoming the major pain in both game and movie industry, 2y-3y is a long time for content production.


Good news Bad news you decide!
29  Java Game APIs & Engines / J2ME / Re: netBeans or eclipse for j2me development? on: 2005-09-16 00:53:12
NetBeans is my choice too.  Grin the mobility team is great.
30  Java Game APIs & Engines / Java 3D / Re: Particle System for Java 3D on: 2005-09-12 17:35:49
Very interesting stuff,

maybe i will take a shoot at doing this (after i get more acquainted), first with the CPU then with the GPU, my inspiration comes from the lord of the rings game series from EA, where they have created a particle system capable of handling 1Million particles, also from an article i read on gamasutra a long time ago about doing it all in the GPU.
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