Darkstar is the PC term for a star that's not to bright.  They used to be called Dwarf stars.

Hmmm...It started me on level 81 which was damn near impossible without any powerups.  I uninstalled incase there was baggage from the beta causing it.  Then I launched and it was expired and I couldn't play at all

I'm impressed - yet again you got me excited and yet again I know nothing new!!   J/K - I know the date when all will be revealed

Thanks!  Glad you found it useful.  I wrote it for people such as yourself who want to work in 3D but have no idea what's involved in it or what kind of issues to expect.

I wouldn't exactly say Sun is ignoring the games industry entirely.  They are showing Darkstar at the GDC in March.  The problem is that they are only seriously targeting the server side of the equation.

However, there are some reasons that might make Java not so good on consoles.  For a full blown AAA title, Java just might not cut it.  A big part of that might infact be memory usage (not performance).  The consoles are very resource constrained and that's not an area that JSE functions well in compared to C/C++.   HOWEVER - there are efforts by both Microsoft and Nintendo to capture the growing casual and Indie games market.  Those games require much less memory (as a general rule) and could easily fit within the constraints  of a modern console, without having to re-jig them much or the VM (other then the obvious HW differences in console architecture).  I am not sure what Sony's view on the casual market is, but this is an area where Java could fit very nicely on any current or next generation console. 

Casual/Indy style games that can run UNCHANGED on consoles, PC's, Linux or Mac's - that would be huge.  Right now, there are big porting efforts going on to bring these kind of games to XBox Live.  That porting effort wouldn't be necessary in the case of Java if the VM was there, and that would make Java very attractive.

I don't know why - perhaps it's better to ask them then us.


It has been in some cases, and not in others.  Again though, It seems more logical to ask people that didn't choose Java over those who did.  The rest of us would just be theorizing anyway.

uj, I think I understand your frustration, but there really is no point arguing Java vs. C++ on these boards.  This is a Java games development board, so the only question is -  Is Java good enough for developing games, and the answer is resounding yes.  We know this from experience.  I am developing with it (see my sig) and many already have completed games that are competing along side C++ games (and other languages).  You may or may not wish to use Java to program a game, that's your porogitive, but we have and are.  We know what it's capable of and we know it's limits and we know it's good enough for what *we* are doing.  You can choose to accept that or not, the decision is yours. 

Java can still manage the memory,  that wouldn't change.  This is just a means to access it cleanly and efficiently.


That example is not so simple, that's the point.  It's a very real world problem that has to be hacked to death in Java to make it work.  Hacked may be to strong...let's just say the solution is unclean, wasteful and obviously non-intuitive (or one of you would have posted the solution).

It's about efficient data manipulation and interfacing with other technologies.  Try using OpenGL or interfacing with other systems via their network protocols, then you'll know why this is important.

Yup.


This is not mapping the data to direct memory.  You couldn't send this to OpenGL.

Sure.  The simplest way is to pose a problem to you:

In Java, using a direct ByteBuffer (say we are sending data to OpenGL), map the following information into a useable structure of some kind (class) and access the 100th item.  You should allocate space for 100 elements, but only bother populating the 100th element for your solution.  Set all values to 1:

float x
float y
float z


Compare whatever you come up with to a C version - old crusty language wich is supposed to be more difficult then Java

struct  vertex {
 float x;
 float y;
 float z;
};

int main() {
 struct vertex * verts;
 vertex *v ;

 verts = (struct vertex *) malloc(sizeof(struct vertex) * 100);

 v = verts + 99;

  v->x = 1;
  v->y = 1;
  v->z = 1;
 
  free(verts);
}


My C is rusty (like 10-15 years rusty ).  I don't know if that's 100% correct, but if not, it's close, you get the idea.

Compare both and ask yourself which one of these is supposed to be the modern language making things simple and easy
 

Structs will make working with memory in nio buffers much easier, cleaner and more performant.   Win win.

Oh the pain that could have been saved had these been there from day one (well when nio was created)....  Thousands of programmers lost their sanity crying out for proper data constructs... Not in vane my brothers!!  Your cries have been heard!!!

Hmm...I thought about that.  I'm not sure he'll buy it though.  My boss is the VP and he was charged by the CEO to initiate some pure research.  I developed a prototype 3D interface in Java for one of our applications using my game engine...perhaps this is an angle I can use?  ...doubtful but it's worth a shot

Well, the flight, hotel and pass is $2600 Cdn, then I need food, entertainment, spending and local travel- so I figured 500-1000 for that. -- it all adds up.

Ouch! 

Between flight, hotel, conference pass and spending for the trip it looks like it's more like $3000-3500 

I am swinging back on the side of not going now.  That's alot of cash to go partying .   If your going to convince me, do it fast because in 2 days, the price will go up by another $500

Ok - now I am swinging on the Go side.   I am going to look into flights and hotels. 

I am tossing around the idea of going, but it doesn't look like there will be much there for me to justify burning vacation days and a couple grand of cash.  It would be nice to meet Jeff and Chris though... dunno

Malohkan and g666 -  It sounds like your cards don't have the level of shader support required for this demo.

If your as experienced in C++ and Java as you claim, then you should already have the answers.

Sometimes there really are yes and no answers and everything else is just clouding and misdirection.  The questions I posed are simply and accuratley answered with those two and three letter words.  I choose to simplify the questions and responses to eliminate the possibility for you or anyone else to misdirect the discussion further.  However, here are some statements to backup my "cocksure" answers:

1 - Can C++ be faster then Java - YES.  -

C++ can do some forms of data manipulation faster and often has a more direct route (less abstraction) from the hardware, therefore there are areas where C++ can exceed Java's performance.

2 - Does this mean that Java isn't good for game development - NO.

Several games have already been developed in Java - covering everything from simple 2D to 3D using the latest video card capabilities - across all game genres.  The language is turing complete and sufficiently performant enough for 95% of the games one would want to develop.

3 - Can Java be used to build ANY game that can be built in C++?  - UNKNOWN - Logic would suggest that a game pushing the absolute limits of the CPU may not be possible in Java without bridging to native assembly calls, though a C++ version would probably require that as well.  1-5% of games developed per year may fall into that category.

No one has built or attempted to build a truly bleeding edge engine in Java as of this time.  So there is no proof either way. 

4 - Is Java faster for development then C++ - YES.

There are many examples out there of this, but I'll give you one of my own. 

My company is owned by an umbrella company which is ranked as the 6th largest software developer in Canada.  In 2002 I was hired to hire a team and design a rewrite of our core product from the ground up.   I choose to use Java and the project was completed on time and under budget 2 years later.  Four of our sister companies were challenged at the same time with the same task.  None of them succeded and all but one was eventually cancelled (they were using Delphi and are close - 2 years late, but close).  Two of the projects were in C++.   Our parent company was very upset (millions of dollars wasted) and hired consultants to evaluate the projects.  The C++ projects both had more resources and the scope of the products they were developing were substantially smaller.   Primary reasons sited for the falures was technical complexity inherint with the technology platforms chosen.  As the size and complexity grew, the development slowed and stalled.  Our product was the only one that was finished, the only one under budget, required the least resources, was the largest project (functionality wise - 4.5 Million lines of code) and is the only one that runs on multiple platforms.   I got promoted to director of R&D for being the architect of the project and our parent company has me consult on all the techology decisions being made across the various companies for anything with a budget exceeding a million dollars.

Ton's of other stories exist.  It's the nature of language design.  Eliminate the pain points to improve the productivness and simplify the solution.

5 - Is there any point about arguing performance issues of C++ vs Java - NO

People see what they want to see.  We can go back and forth for a millenia and be no further in this discussion.   That's why it's a waste of time and there is no point.

Uggh... these threads are such a waste of time.

@.uj -

1 - Can C++ be faster then Java - YES. 
2 - Does this mean that Java isn't good for game development - NO. 
3 - Can Java be used to build ANY game that can be built in C++?  - UNKNOWN - Logic would suggest that a game pushing the absolute limits of the CPU may not be possible in Java without bridging to native assembly calls, though a C++ version would probably require that as well.  1-5% of games developed per year may fall into that category.
4 - Is Java faster for development then C++ - YES.
5 - Is there any point about arguing performance issues of C++ vs Java - NO - Unless your game falls into category 3, such arguments are a waste of time and either:
  A) show your ignorance of Java
  B) show your tendency toward premature optimization
  C) show which god you follow in this *mostly* religious debate
  D) show your intent on trolling

Point 2 and point 4 is all this entire thread was supposed to be about.  Unless you are developing a category 3 game, then there is no point of this discussion.  If you are developing such a game I understand your concerns.  If you have particular issues, post them and we can try to help you resolve them.  Otherwise, you have fallen into one of items A-D and are wasting everyones time.

I can give you a hint (heading out the door) - data can be proxied - objects can be resused.

I was wondering what the plans are for Sun at GDC this year?  I got my flyer at the office, but only had time to skim it - saw Chris M in mobile games.  And of course the tidbits of info we have had on the MMO server suggests it will be there.   What else are you guys up to?

Yes - Back in the day, we used to say the same thing about C in comparison to assembly.  Old school assembly argued you couldn't use C to write games because it was to slow. 

If your your using hardware acceleration 75-95% of the work is being done on the card, speed of the language being used becomes far less important.  The performance gains just aren't there to be had and the net result is you just increase development time and complexity for single digit FPS improvements.

Example:  You could have Doom 3 written entirely in assembly, running on a P4 3Ghz CPU, but if the graphics card sucks it won't be playable.  Conversley, you can (and do) have Doom 3 running on a P3 733Mhz processor with a custom nVidia Geoforce 4ti (an XBox) and getting 30-60FPS. 

With hardware acceleration, the language being used only has to be "fast enough" - Java is fast enough. 

Depending on how that's interpreted, it could be one of the most interesting things I have ever read on this board...

Thanks for the update Blah^3.  Keep em coming.

Off topic:   Kev, Martian Madness 2 is looking pretty cool - not bad for a stupid guy!

PS: Can you chew gum and code at the same time?  I tried that once and ended up gumming my keyboard

PPS:  The devil made me say that - this is my 666th post - now I can *finally* unleash the minions and take over the earth!!! MUHAHAHAHA

PPPS:  Did I mention I have been home sick for two days with a fever of 101?

PPPPS:  To any religious people: sorry about that whole unleashing the minions thing - I really have no plans to unleash the minions at this time.

PPPPPS: Ok that last PPPPS was also uncalled for.  I have no minions...really.   I am going to go lie down and put a cold cloth on my head.

It's comming along.  Most of the problems I had the first time I tried it are gone, but I still only get 20FPS on my nVidia Geoforce 5500.  I didn't try setting the nodraw to true. 

I really like the game play and like where this is going.  I have some suggestions though:

- The graphics need work. 
  - The sky is to plane, clouds would be nice
  - Jack should be more detailed
  - The bees wings should be transparent
  - The menu screen could be greatly improved with some nice 2D art

- The sound
  - Music is pretty catchy, but theres a bug, if I leave the applet, then return I get no sound
  - More sounds like when you jump or land on leaves would be good
  - Maybe sound for bees buzzing when they are close to you

- No powerups
  - I think this game would be much better with powerups on hard to reach leaves
  - Something to kill 1 bee would be nice (like you get one shot, can kill only one bee...choose wisely which one)
  - Same for spider
  - A powerup that gives you a high jump for a limited time
  - A powerup that makes you invincible for a limited time

- A deluxe downloadable, fullscreen version for $19.95 at your favorite game portal web site

My list is long, but not that bad.  I really think this game has allot of potential.  It's fun and addictive, that's the key to sales.  I really believe that if you do the above, and fix your applet issues, this game could be a big seller on the portals.  Heck, I wish I had thought of it!

I like those reasons to. 

The game industry hasn't latched on to Java or C#  for three reasons; 
1. Performance myths
2. The sheer number of C++ engines and API's available (usually including their own)
3. Most game developers know C++ and don't want to switch (related to reason 1)

1 & 3 will go away if 2 is no longer an issue.

PS: I forgot one, but it's a biggy - porting to consoles isn't an option (for Java games) without a big investment or a language port

What do you mean?    Like Doom 3... or do you mean like UT2004?







(j/k)

The usefulness of scene graphs depends allot on the game.  2D won't get many benefits, just bloat.  For 3D it depends more in my opinion on how happily the SG can be bypassed and live with your custom code.  I built a scene graph for the engine used in Kumari.  It's just the basics and allows me to ignore it completely if needed when I want to tune something specific or lives happily along side any other OpenGL calls.  For the GUI I just wrote my own, again extremley light and independent of the SG code or the OpenGL calls being made.