In fact it doesn't. Don't take it personal but to me you're just anybody posting at a forum.

If you are who you claim to be you should understand my concern. I don't have the kind of insight into LWJGL that you have. So for the benefit of me and other commersial developers I suggest you use your influence to improve the LWJGL site. Would it be so darn hard to produce a list of all supported platforms? No ifs or buts or maybes, just the plain facts in writing. We at LWJGL are committed to support these platforms. Reduce the bull and increase the hard facts.

It's okay for hobby developments, but not for commersial developments. If you think someone would "bet the company" on heresay at a forum you're more than a little naive.

I've realize I've asked at the wrong forum so I stop here.

And I'm saying that claims made by individuals aren't good enougth. To be worth anything such claims must be supported by firm evidence. In short, show me the list.

Note that Java has no official OpenGL support at the moment. OpenGL is not part of Java. There exists different non-official OpenGL initiatives though and I can live with that. But what I need is a list of what exact  platforms these projects are committed to support. I haven't been able to locate any.

Without any firm commitments of what exactly is supported the OpenGL support can hardly be characterized as "brilliant". I would rather call it shaky.

As an example have a look at this,

http://java.sun.com/javase/6/webnotes/install/system-configurations.html

Well, in the best of worlds both are supported but as it stands none is supported and that's stupid beyond comprehension.

At least initially I think OpenGL has priority because it's portable and an industry standard and that's more in line with how Java is positioned. Also what you can do in DirectX you can also do in OpenGL. Although DirectX dominates gaming right now there still are some OpenGL enabled games and things can change if Khronos gets their act together.

By the way I note that Sun was a "Khronos Promoting Member Company". It's all a big laugth isn't. Whatever Sun promoted with Java it definately wasn't OpenGL.

I'm talking about the official list of Jogl supported platforms. Version X of Jogl supports the following platforms, Y1, Y2, ... and YN. Platforms Z1, Z2, ... and ZN are not supported but are known to work. That list.

For Jogl to be credible such a list must exist. Otherwise it's a morass. You cannot depend on what people claim at forums.

Thank you.

Doesn't there exist some list of officially supported platforms? I haven't been able to locate one.

Well, I guess everything is in flux right now. Hopefully Oracle makes a firm committment to OpenGL. I just cannot understand why such an important standard isn't part of core Java. Hobby projects aside, what company would use Java for game or scientific visualization developments if Java doesn't support OpenGL? Java is supposed to be platform independent for heavens sake but doesn't support the most important platform independent standard in graphics. It's so lame it's almost funny.

Is it obvious or doesn't anyone know?

You shouldn't make your own general scengraph. It's too complex. It's like building your own compiler or editor. Use an existing one instead, like Aviatrix3D

http://aviatrix3d.j3d.org/index.html

Or JMonkey,

http://www.jmonkeyengine.com/index.php

If Oracle goes after the mobile market with Java it's good news for OpenGL. Then they definately must support OpenGL ES and by doing that the binding infrastructure would be in place and they could add on full OpenGL with little extra cost.

Hopefully Oracle's Java strategy involves making Jogl a core library again.

Jogl probably became a victim of Sun's bad financies. They really didn't want it in the first place so it was so easy for them to sack it when the going got tough. One can only hope Oracle brings it back in or at least gives it full official support as open source. It's totally stupid and a misery that Java doesn't have a solid and dependable OpenGL binding.

Is JOGL 2 supporting any 64 bit operating systems?

Yes I've noticed but isn't that a drag. There's this impressive command line setting raising expectations but when you try it out it doesn't work and you wonder - is it me they're after! Fortunately I've been in the trenches for a while so I don't take it personally. 

I know I don't need it. The problem is I can't use it even if I wanted to because it doesn't work with Vista Aero. My question here was to figure out whether others had the same problem.

Why would I want to have the OpenGL pipeline switch on for Swing rendering? Well, why not if I'm using JOGL for my application specific rendering. Then the whole application would be rendered uniformly using OpenGL. I find a certain beauty in that. 

I've installed JOGL now and it works fine with Vista Aero, but not with the OpenGL graphics pipeline enabled. Well, I'll have to accept this for the time being.

Thanks for your help!

If I use the Vista theme (Aero) on my computer none of those demo applications works. When I switch to the Classic theme, both work.

I guess this means I'm in for some serious trouble getting JOGL to work with Aero? Strange, it's a mainstream computer. It's a Dell XPS 420 with an nVidia GeForce 8800 GTX.

I haven't started using JOGL yet but I will in a moment and I'm confident it will work fine. What doesn't work right now is the OpenGL graphics pipeline generally. Nothing renders at all. All I get is a translucent Windows application frame.

All (or at least many) guides to JOGL say that it may be a good idea to use the OpenGL pipeline together with JOGL so that everything becomes rendered with OpenGL. But, as I've reported, the OpenGL pipline doesn't seem to work with Vista Aero. I would like to establish whether this is a known issue or if it's related to some problem with my computer.

I hope that someone will be able to confirm this. Is there some issue with the OpenGL graphics pipeline and Vista Aero? Has Sun officially announced there is or has someone had the same experience as me?

I'm going to use JOGL extensively in my application so I would also like to use the OpenGL graphics pipeline. I've enabled it giving this command to the JVM (using Eclipse),

-Dsun.java2d.opengl=True

When the program starts I get this information,

Java version: 1.6.0_10
OpenGL pipeline enabled for default config on screen 0

If I have the Windows Vista theme on my computer only an empty translucent window frame is shown. When I change to the Windows Classic theme the program window appears as it should. I've tried both SystemLookAndFeel and NimbusLookAndFeel but there's no difference.

It seems the OpenGL graphics pipeline doesn't work with Windows Vista Aero. Is there some setting I've missed or something?

Under the circumstances I recommend you go for Java. If it was a commersial project I would say C++ instead. I would also recommed two objectives:

1. You have a great opportunity to make a valuable  "proof of concept" contribution, namely that Java is sufficiently efficient for games. So make the game so slick no one can even begin to guess it's written in Java.

2. Acknowledge that gaming today has a theoretical underpinning. Relate your game to the concepts in say Rules of Play by Salen/Zimmerman. It's an academic project isn't it.

Don't worry, I won't discuss DirectX again here. I'm using the result of that discussion to examplify my point on the current topic. I think the most important result of Java being open sourced is the attitude change towards the language that will follow. From the DirectX discussion it became clear to me that many still hold the fundamentalist view of Java fostered during the early hype days. Java isn't just any language. It's the language that will change the world and save us from evil. So Java just cannot support DirectX because it represents the black forces.

I was quite surprised to find this religious attitude towards Java still so strong. Hopefully it will finally disappear now and that would be a good thing because it has hampered Java for so long.

Okay now oNyx you can continue your discussion of stripped down deliveries or whatever it was you found so important. In my view such petty details are of lesser importance.

And of course the attitude towards DirectX had to change when Java was open sourced.

Before it was felt that Java had to support OpenGl only (to satisfy old Microsoft bashers), but once Java was open sourced it became clear that Java, to be used in games, needed an API to DirectX. Otherwise it was realised it would be toast.

Before this thread is coming to a complete stand-still I would like everybody to state where they're going instead.

Open sourcing is good for Java.

What we want is a strong "body" determining what's considered Standard Java. This "body" must also have the legal rights to the Java trademark otherwise it will be teethless. (We for example don't want a situation similar to that of C++ where Microsoft has hijacked C++ and made into their own language called C++/CLI).

Open sourcing Java will finally free it from everything that has held it down so far. It finally can be a programming language among others without any religious notions about what it is or how it must be used.

I understand Mr McNeally had to leave for this to happen. Although he went in bed with Mr Gates to get Java into Microsoft it would have been too much even for him to see J# turned into proper Java. But that's what's going to happen when Java is open sourced. J# will be Standard Java and the Microsoft's implementation of Java as good and valid as the Sun's.

That's how Java's future is secured. I thank the gods Sun has realised it.

Well I think I deserve a reply from the moderators.

Why was exactly I punished?

I've spent some considerable time in this thread. I've replied carefully to anyone opposing my view. The only time I reacted negatively was

1. when I was called a troll, and
2. when someone said I was consistently contradicting myself.

In both cases I asked for confirmation but didn't get any.

Is this material enougth to expel someone from this forum? I don't think so and I think it's something else behind.

I think the moderators of this forum are bought by Sun. They cannot go against Sun employes and they cannot go against the view of Sun. It's a shame really.

Basically any Java program will be able to run faster on a multi-core processor. (If they actually will is a question of how well implemented the JVM is to take advantage of the CPU cores). This is because in Java concurrency is inherent. Some of Java's appearant slowlyness is because it has made use of concurrency which hasn't been well executed on a single-core processor. But once multi-core is in place the obstacle is removed and many programs will run much faster.

So in summary multicore is good for Java. It's good even if you don't do anything, but it's even better if you adapt for concurrency. Any programmer interested in this should buy a copy of Java Concurrency in Practice by Brian Goetz and others. It's already a classic.

Thank you. Not to start anything again but I do think I was provoked in #42 (Jeff) and in #83 (zingbat). I think one should have the right to respond forcefully to insinuations like those, but I can also understand you have to prevent a possible flame-war.

I don't write in my first language so when it gets a little heated I tend to overdo things and words come out in a harsher tone than intended. My ultimate goal of course is to one day be able to insult people with such finesse that they don't even realize they've been flamed. Wish me good luck! 

Yes very much so and that's why I found it strange that this forum wasn't more active but maybe the simple reason is that Java3D isn't used that much for gaming.

Rubbish? What do you mean? The only thing rubbish I've seen here is you. You haven't even explaind what you mean by rubbish.

So basically,

If you're smart, learn C++ (and C of course).

Java and C# and other modern OO languages wouldn't even exist and will not survive without C++.

C++ trancends the languages that builds on it. C++ really is much better than those languages. It's better because it supersedes what the other languages can do.

And yes I'm love with C++. It doesn't try to manage my memory. -:)

Extremely slow forum.

Where's the action?

Is anybody at all using Java3D?

You're reacting very slowly Mr. Forum Moderator. The only flaming in this thread has been by Jeff already in post #42 where he calls me a troll. Other than that I can see no flaming. Can You? I suggest you clarify your position.

I'm just asking Zingbat to justify what he claimed, nameley that I'm contradicting myself.

So Zingbat, where's your example? In this whole thread just give one single example of where I'm contradicting myself? Can you do that or have you been bullshitting?