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1  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-21 15:49:43
Obvious troll is obvious.  Why even unban him?  If he stays here, he will do nothing but make the atmosphere as toxic as possible.

Grow up.
2  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-21 15:47:21
There's an endemic lack of professionalism in here. It must be because the majority of Java game developers are hobbyists and not professionals, and that explains their inability to grasp the basics. An amateur has all the time of the world in his hands.

When you are professionally involved with something, you have a deadline. And your job depends on it. That's how you pay your bills. Then every hour you spend fiddling around with libraries, trying to make them work or just evaluating them, is an hour less you have to develop your product.

That's why there are Integrated Development Environments. Their purpose is to provide all to tools and libraries you would need to develop and deploy a product in one place. This way it is possible to focus on the actual product development.

I have the impression I am going over people's heads in here. This should be common sense for anyone taking game development seriously.  This attitude explains a lot in fact.

3  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-21 15:05:13
I have been developing in Java for a long time and it puzzles me the state of things in it. Why is Java so bad for so many things? When it is glaringly obvious by the competition that there are better ways of doing things.

Java moves at a glacial pace.

Only in Java 8 we are getting closures and defender methods. And the impression I get is that it happened only because Java development was humiliated so badly that Sun/Oracle had no other choice. Does it really need to reach such a point?

Java is a pathetic non-competitor in gaming because of this "insular" attitude.
4  Discussions / General Discussions / Now I know why Java sucks for gaming on: 2012-07-18 01:55:52
Everytime someone points out the obvious, you act all defensive.

You should do more like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates, just copy the good ideas!.

"Good artists copy. Great artists steal."

Now go customize Gnome 3 in order to make it usable... haha
5  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-17 22:41:06
I think his point was that xna is a tool set that is easily available, is preconfigured, and means you can just get on with the job of writing the game.

There isn't anything like that for Java, you have to pick the libraries you wish to use, download and install them separately, manage distribution etc. You can't just open an IDE, write Java, and have an application fall out that can easily be shared. It's an ease of use of the toolset rather than something to make writing games easier I think.

It sounds like he would like a version of eclipse that has a project template with jogl/jinput/ardor/jMonkeyEngine already there and waiting to go.

I *think* jMonkey might be the closest in that respect (it's been a while since I even looked).


Someone with a brain. I was kind of losing hope.
6  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-17 22:38:42
So...Why don't you do that?

Because I am not the creator nor maintainer of any game engine at all. And since most of the work is already done, only in different places, it seems that would be just a matter of putting everything together.
7  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-17 22:36:23
Who would get to say what goes in these standard game libraries? Perhaps you should create / implement a prototype solution?

Why to reinvent the wheel? There are plenty of Java game engines around. Just pick one and use it as the default, with some option for plugging in others if needed or desired.
8  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Kick Visual Studio in the face on: 2012-07-17 22:29:27
I think the logic behind the delay is "if I pause for a second, I probably need help remembering what method/field/whatever I want to type.  If I don't pause, I'm probably hammering out code by myself just fine, and popups would just obscure my view of other code in the editor."

Except that it doesn't obscure anything. And if you are typing code then you aren't reading some other part of the page. What do Java developers read code a couple of lines below while typing something new?
9  Discussions / General Discussions / Kick Visual Studio in the face on: 2012-07-17 02:32:16
One thing VS fanboys usually bring up is Intellisense as some kind of "advantage". It is strange, because since the 90s completion is a kind of a standard feature for any shitty editor.

Well, it happens that Eclipse comes with a delay enabled, so the completion takes much longer than just instantaneous. WHY!? Just so Java looks slow and not as good as the competition!?

In order to make Eclipse to behave like VS, just change Auto activation delay (ms) to 0 and Auto activation triggers for Java to .abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ in Java / Editor / Content Assist.

Sometimes I think there are too many Linux freaks in Java. They seem to make things always so unnecessarily complicated, there's always an extra configuration somewhere, an extra file you have to copy, etc. Too much BS that should be default!
10  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Operator overloading on: 2012-07-16 00:48:45
What tool is that? I was not aware that one existed and that is why i suggested you make the tool your self... then others can benefit as well if they want operator overloading as well.

Visual Studio and C++ or C#.
11  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-16 00:47:57
perhaps you are unable to express the point you are trying to make in a manner that most people can understand?

Do I need to draw?
12  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Operator overloading on: 2012-07-16 00:46:18
If you are keen then you can always create a pre-processor for your code that translates your custom operators into legitimate java syntax (i.e. method calls etc)

You can even make it a plugin into your IDE so that it does the pre-processing step automatically.

How about I don't do anything and just use a tool that does it for me, like, something other than Java?
13  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-16 00:36:59
Try Game Maker over at

It is like talking to a door, isn't it?
14  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Operator overloading on: 2012-07-16 00:19:22
I really don't see what operator overloading has to do with games.

Everything, because you will use vectors and matrices a lot.

This simple feature makes Java very shitty for this type of application.
15  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-16 00:17:04
If you do feel like XNA just works for you then why consider changing?

It seems like your minds are broken.

How difficult is to understand how good technology looks like? Apple does it. Microsoft sometimes does it, sometimes doesn't. Java used to do it.

Garbage Collection is all about letting the programmer focus on the problem instead of reimplementing the same damned memory management over and over. Thus the development is faster, with less bugs and simpler. And guess what, you don't need to install it separately or configure anything, it just works out of the box.

Apparently at some point in time Java people "got it". Now they act like Linux freaks who think confusing installation instructions of several JARs and configurations is a replacement for actual tools.
16  Discussions / General Discussions / Operator overloading on: 2012-07-16 00:05:43
I know that this is discussed ever since Java was released, and every other week someone comes around with the brilliant idea: "What if Java had operator overloading?"

Well, I understand the reasons against it, but did people at Sun ever questioned them? I mean, at all? Because it seems odd that a bunch of smart people would simply accept such arbitrariness without saying anything.

Operator overloading is a must for mathematical code. I can totally understand why some wouldn't want to touch Java for games.

Was there ever a controversy about it?
17  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-15 23:58:10
But maybe it could be made "Next-Next-Finish" to get Eclipse up and a basic game running?

A FPS?  A platformer?  A top-down shooter?  A driving game?  Any and all of the above?  Just a few clicks of a wizard away?

If you don't want to program, you've got the wrong hobby.

I want to program... GAMES. I don't want to worry about what API to use, or setting a classpath variable, or downloading the right JARs, etc.

This is how good technology is: it just works!
18  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-15 22:49:37

Is it some integrated solution like XNA?
Java Games Initiative Software Advanced Technologies Group at Sun Microsystems took care of several APIs still used nowadays. Its guys aimed to create something similar to XNA. Actually, in my humble opinion, XNA was not a good framework, JOGL, JOAL, JOCL, Java binding for the OpenMAX API and JInput are already used in higher level frameworks, I don't see the need of something like XNA, SDL or SFML in Java.

LibGDX is fine anyway. C# is not as cross-platform as Java and OpenTk is slower than JOGL.

I think this is a "open source" problem. I don't want to pick and choose libraries here and there. If I am interested in making games, and I want to focus in making them and not worry about libraries, engines, classpath, etc. And that's what XNA does. It is one thing to learn, in one place and tightly integrated with Visual Studio. The thing "just works"!

I understand that things like LWJGL kind of do that. But maybe it could be made "Next-Next-Finish" to get Eclipse up and a basic game running?
19  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-15 17:25:20
If Oracle were nice enough to let people use the name "Java" in "Java Game Edition" without suing them, it would be cool too.
I assume you already know "Java Games Initiative"...

Never heard of it, and apparently never did Google. Smiley

Is it some integrated solution like XNA?
20  Discussions / General Discussions / Java Game Edition on: 2012-07-15 12:48:20
I am suffering through the Visual Studio BS again, this time with C#, and I have been thinking. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a "Java Game Edition", like all the APIs needed for game development in one place and ready to go in Eclipse or Netbeans? Much like XNA.

XNA is kind of cool because it makes development easy and I don't have to worry about configuring anything. If Java had something equivalent for Android/PC, then I think it would be good for all of us. Maybe we could even stop suffering with Visual Studio's shortcomings.

I know all the code for it is already done in LWJGL or jMonkeyEngine or some other API. Wouldn't it be just a matter of a concerted effort?

If Oracle were nice enough to let people use the name "Java" in "Java Game Edition" without suing them, it would be cool too.
21  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: APIs for gamepads on: 2012-06-22 01:51:30
Awesome! I am going to try it out then.

Are there any pointers to documentation that I should see?
22  Discussions / General Discussions / APIs for gamepads on: 2012-06-22 00:43:59

Is there any Java API for the 360 controller on the PC?

I saw a project called JInput around, but is it abandoned? Does it work with the 360 gamepad?

Any recommendation?
23  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Does really game development on Java suck? Why are we still here? on: 2012-05-04 02:13:48
I can't believe some people still claim Visual Studio is any good. Unless VS for .Net is so much better, my experience so far has been miserable. I am working on some C stuff (not C++, remember, they are distinct languages) and it is horrible:

- Eclipses closes blocks automatically. Microsoft seems to think that if you use { or ( you might not want to close it.  Roll Eyes;
- Eclipse formats the comments automatically;
- Eclipse has many templates for generating code, like for, foreach,, sysout, etc. I can't remember the last time I had to manually write a for loop;
- References are marked in a different color when the cursor is on top of it;
- When there's an error or warning the editor marks the line so you don't have to go looking for it or use the "go to the line";
- Most importantly Eclipse gives suggestions for corrections with Ctrl-1, like using an alternative method (like Google "Did you mean?") or creating the code for you;
- Although Visual Studio lets you browse through the code definitions just like Eclipse, in Eclipse I can visualize the definition of a method without having to open the file, by showing it in a box;
- Eclipse gives variable names automatically.

And that's just the beginning. Eclipse helps you alot more with suggestions, templates, code generation, refactoring, etc.

VS doesn't implement the C99 standard, even though it is more than 10 years old. It means that VS doesn't allow you to declare variables in a any part of the code, just at the beginning of the block.

That's the problem Visual Studio is TOO F***ING DUMB. It just stands there and doesn't even let you know that something this stupid is wrong:

if (i = 0) {

I mean, WTF! I spent half an hour to find that shit! Seriously, VS sucks HARD.

Besides, why the hell is everything in VS 2 or 3 clicks away!? You know why? Because the UI is horrible. Eclipse has different perspectives so you don't clutter your screen with 1000 options.

In VS if you want to see the stacktrace and the variables you have to click 2 times and keep clicking between them.

Visual Studio is too "clicky". In Eclipse everything seems to be right in front of your face.

People who like VS should be exposed. If I knew VS was this f**king bad I wouldn't even have bothered.
24  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Does really game development on Java suck? Why are we still here? on: 2012-04-11 16:27:07
Java has had concurrency primitives and multithreading from day one, and later got lots of useful utilities. That alone is superior to most languages out there without a standard concurrency model.

Java's concurrency primitives are pretty decent, largely the same thing you get in POSIX, and otherwise lacking things like channels or logic variables.  What does make Java awesome is that it gives its primitives precise semantics (especially since the JMM in 1.5) that are guaranteed to work across platforms.  That's the sort of WORA I like in Java -- god knows it's not for the beauty of the cross-platform GUI toolkit :p

There are other ways of doing concurrency that offer advantages. But comparatively Java does pretty well in that regard, especially when compared to other mainstream languages.
25  Game Development / Game Mechanics / Re: Using code generation in your game. on: 2012-04-11 16:09:47
LISP is a fantastic language and very worthwhile to learn.  And I sincerely hope to never need to (directly) programming in it ever again.

As long as our hypothetical Blub programmer is looking down the power continuum, he knows he's looking down. Languages less powerful than Blub are obviously less powerful, because they're missing some feature he's used to. But when our hypothetical Blub programmer looks in the other direction, up the power continuum, he doesn't realize he's looking up. What he sees are merely weird languages. He probably considers them about equivalent in power to Blub, but with all this other hairy stuff thrown in as well. Blub is good enough for him, because he thinks in Blub.

When we switch to the point of view of a programmer using any of the languages higher up the power continuum, however, we find that he in turn looks down upon Blub. How can you get anything done in Blub? It doesn't even have y.

By induction, the only programmers in a position to see all the differences in power between the various languages are those who understand the most powerful one. (This is probably what Eric Raymond meant about Lisp making you a better programmer.) You can't trust the opinions of the others, because of the Blub paradox: they're satisfied with whatever language they happen to use, because it dictates the way they think about programs.
26  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Does really game development on Java suck? Why are we still here? on: 2012-04-11 15:55:07
WRT: Java support muticore like no other?  I think Java is very very weak for concurrency.

 Roll Eyes

If you are going to bash Java, could you at least try to make sense?

Java has had concurrency primitives and multithreading from day one, and later got lots of useful utilities. That alone is superior to most languages out there without a standard concurrency model.

If by "weak" you mean: "not the latest fad", then yes, it doesn't. And no, Clojure isn't good because it places the burden on the developer. There's a reason why dynamic memory management is excellent, a similar reason sould apply to concurrency as well.

Implementing a completely different concurrency model is impractical at this point.
27  Game Development / Game Mechanics / Re: Using code generation in your game. on: 2012-04-09 16:12:49
"Whoever does not understand LISP, he is doomed to reinvent it".

Metaprogramming makes perfect sense. Your problem is a very common problem that all developers reach at some point of their careers, because it is impossible not to notice certain repetitive tasks that could be automated somehow.

The problem is, Java is a terrible tool for that. That's why there are so many "frameworks" around. The language itself doesn't offer an easy way of generating code.

Dynamic languages like Python and Ruby are also bad, because their "metaprogramming" happens at runtime, not compilation.

Lisp has allowed developers to do what you want to do for the last 50 years. No extra libraries or frameworks needed, just the language itself.
28  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: JavaScript is a scam on: 2011-11-10 18:21:27
Seriously... people should stop hating and start loving JavaScript, because it will play such a big role in this trend. Not knowing JavaScript in a few years will be equivalent to "not able to make web pages", and let's face it, most of what programmers do nowadays is web page related.

29  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: JavaScript is a scam on: 2011-11-10 18:17:45
Comments like this show how little you really know about concurrency in JavaScript, because your just flat wrong. In JavaScript objects cannot be shared between threads. All communication is performed using messages, which are copied when sent, and this cannot be circumvented. It's just like Erlang.

That's not the problem (Well, unnecessary copying is, but that's not what we are talking about).

The problem is the global environment and other objects caught in the lexical environment when declaring closures. The global variable could be changed. Definitely not like Erlang.
30  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: JavaScript is a scam on: 2011-11-09 19:16:18
It gets ugly, quickly. As your codebase grows it becomes harder and harder to maintain. OO is a necessity, but it doesn't exclude other options.
I would suggest you to reread my comment. Who said OO alone is the solution?
I cannot find any interpretation of your comments that I would agree with.  My main issue here is that too many OO only programmers (or with little experience in alternate abstractions) think they don't need any extra tools in their toolbox as it is, even when they're attempting to jump through convoluted hoops to get something implemented.

And where I say something else is not needed?

Not wanting it in Java.  Fine.  But where's "the pain like Javascript" part coming from?  I fail to see how extending a provided base class to get actor support coupled with marking root methods with @pausable is much of a burden or some kind of syntax pollution.

Actors have properties that imperative languages (including Javascript) can't provide, such as encapsulation between actors. In Java (or Javascript) it would always be possible to change the state of an object. But you could always implement a Runnable and call it an Actor, I guess.

There are differences between a language like Erlang and a "framework" that looks more like a bandaid for an hemorrhage.

Concurrency is a necessisity at a language level.

Erlang is a very cool language that virtually nobody should go bother to learn.   Is your next project code that runs on a bank of servers that requires 100% uptime?  Fine, check-out Erlang.  Otherwise it would appear pretty far down my list of language one should get a working knowledge of.

That explains a lot about your opinions on Javascript.

I'd agree that simply having first class functions != functional programming.  On the other hand I don't only consider "purely functional" languages to be the only ones that qualify.  (This is sorta like the OO vs OO argument)

That is not important. I am just pointing out that "dynamic languages" fans aren't really programming in a different way. They are programming imperatively, stuffing functions inside of objects.

Just like they would do in Java, but stupider.
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