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61  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Faster, smaller, simpler: yours for $99 on: 2004-03-31 11:53:02
Quote
Okay,

So what about gamecube?  Smiley

We have engineers available to port a licensed Sun JRE to any game console or whatever platform capable fo running it, and to retarget our compiler to that platform. What we do not have is money to finance the associated licenses and especially sales/marketing. And without that, it would make no sense for us to finance the development effort either.

So if Nintendo or some third party wishes to finance licensing and care about marketing (or just cover our development expenses and have the GameCube JRE included in the respective SDK), we can certainly supply our expertise and engineering force. Otherwise - we feel the real demand for Excelsior JET for Linux, but not for Excelsior JET for GameCube/PlayStation/Xbox/Apple][/etc.
62  Java Game APIs & Engines / Tools Discussion / Re: Java on Sony Playstation(R) 2 on: 2004-03-31 03:54:12
In fact, $11K is just a small fraction of the total licensing, development and marketing costs. One would have to license J2SE or J2ME CDC from Sun in order to port Java to PS2 or any other platform. An annual royalty-free J2SE license used to cost $50K two years ago. (J2ME and J2EE are licensed on royalty basis.)

We have quality enginnering force available that is capable of porting Sun JRE to PS2 and of retargeting our compiler to PS2. We could easily pay for the Sony T&M license, but we are unable to finance the entire effort - porting, development, Java licensing, and esp. marketing.

The ideal solution would therefore be that Sony licenses Java from Sun, ports it to PS2 (or outsources porting to us or some other JVM experts), and makes it available to game developers at no cost.  The question now is how to make Sony do that. Smiley

Perhaps the best way to persuade them is to make a couple PC game bestsellers in Java?
63  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Faster, smaller, simpler: yours for $99 on: 2004-03-30 09:41:47
Quote
So I find this intriguing myself.  Liek Shawn, I'm not sure of the speed claims, at least not without requiring some real ugliness like making all non-polymorphic calls static in your code.  (This is one of the reasons JET bloated your app.  In order to approach Hotspot speed it had to actually include multiple copies of key sections of the code to fall back to in order to provide functionality like the VM's aggressive inlining.

However IF you could indeed reach even 95% of Hostpot Server speed on real apps AND if the system was extensible such that I didn't *have* to use LWJGL but could, for instance with some work port JOGL/JOAL/JInput ,  I think sucha   compiler at such a reasonable price point might have some appeal to me to play with.

I think it would have even MORE appeal though if it compiled to some of the platforms I can't reach today witha  VM, say PS2 and Dreamcube?  Maybe even GBA?

Regarding PS2, see my post in another forum.
64  Game Development / Newbie & Debugging Questions / Re: Java for a game on Pc/Consoles in 2005? on: 2004-03-30 09:41:32
Quote
I'll eat my words when you produce a native compiler for PS2 so I can run Alien Flux on it Smiley

See my post in another forum.
65  Java Game APIs & Engines / Tools Discussion / Java on Sony Playstation(R) 2 on: 2004-03-30 08:49:55
We have received a few inquires recently, including through these forums, concerning the possibility of retargeting our ahead-of-time Java compiler to cross compile to Sony PlayStation(R)2.

We had no such short-term plans, but I have nevertheless contacted Sony Tools and Middleware Licensing Group to find out if, from their perspective, there is any interest in the PS2 developer community in having the Java platform available on PS2, and how we should go about retargeting to PS2.

The answers are as follows:

1. Sony Tools and Middleware is not aware of any interest in Java availability for PS2 from the game developer community.

To tell Sony T&M that you want Java on PS2, please visit their Web site: http://www.tmstation.scei.co.jp/

2. If we want to make a development tool for PS2, we should buy the Tools and Middleware license. The price for a three-year license (set in Japanese Yens) translates to about $11,800 at today's rate.

The costs of licensing and development rule out for us the creation of a Java to PS2 native code cross-compiler on our own. Unless a partner emerges willing to invest in its development and marketing, there will be no such tool available from us in the short- to mid-term future.
66  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: How to search for bugs between jvm impelmentat on: 2004-03-30 04:18:48
Quote
I have tried obtaining the IBM's jvm... however i have had no luck finding a download for it. (and no amount of snazzy search queries on the IBMs site has revealed where i can get a copy Sad )

IBM 1.3 JDK used to be available from http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/java/. As for 1.4, some posts at JavaLobby.org suggested the following:

1. Download WebSphere MQ Evaluation (free, requires registration.) from http://www-306.ibm.com/software/integration/wmq/v53/

2. Start the installation program and click Next repeatedly until it displays a message box with animation asking whether you want to start WebSphere MQ installation now.

3. The IBM 1.4.0 JDK is now in

system-drive:\Program Files\IBM\Source\WebSphere MQ t_en_us\Prereqs\JDK\ibm-java2-sdk-140.exe

Copy it to the desired location.

4. Voila! Now you may cancel WebSphere MQ installation (unless you are interested in evaluating it.)

Quote
The JET compiled native code is about 1.2x-1.5x as fast as the sun's client JVM. not a huge improvement, however over a lot of frames it is noticable.

Well, not that much indeed. If your code is CPU-intensive, esp. floating-point intensive, give IBM JRE a try.
67  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: How to search for bugs between jvm impelmentat on: 2004-03-28 08:46:41
It seems there is a bug in the server VM's dynamic compiler, i.e. your code works ok on the interpreter but the compiled code fails. To prove this, I have run your program on HotSpot 1.4.2_03 three times: as you suggested, with -Xint (interpreter mode) option added and with -XX:CompileThreshold=2 (compile on second call/branch, default is 10000 for the server VM) option added:

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> java -server hdiffC clock -alt -scan -autoDelta 3
Frame 0 as KeyFrame.
Frame: 1 as Key Frame: 95017 as Delta Frame: 109123
Frame: 2 as Key Frame: 95057 as Delta Frame: 108831
Frame: 3Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: -777
        at deltaC.run(deltaC.java:363)
        at hdiffC.encode(hdiffC.java:228)
        at hdiffC.run(hdiffC.java:201)
        at hdiffC.mainInst(hdiffC.java:131)
        at hdiffC.main(hdiffC.java:42)


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> java -server -Xint hdiffC clock -alt -scan -autoDelta 3
Frame 0 as KeyFrame.
Frame: 1 as Key Frame: 95017 as Delta Frame: 109123
Frame: 2 as Key Frame: 95057 as Delta Frame: 108831
Frame: 3 as Key Frame: 95558 as Delta Frame: 108781
Frame: 4 as Key Frame: 95441 as Delta Frame: 108194
Frame: 5 as Key Frame: 95763 as Delta Frame: 107765
Frame: 6 as Key Frame: 95413 as Delta Frame: 106442
Frame: 7 as Key Frame: 95033 as Delta Frame: 106478
Frame: 8 as Key Frame: 95251 as Delta Frame: 107457
Frame: 9 as Key Frame: 95244 as Delta Frame: 108264
Frame: 10 as Key Frame: 95785 as Delta Frame: 108130
No of Frames: 11
avg time taken: 92510
avg time taken per frame: 8410


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> java -server -XX:CompileThreshold=2 hdiffC clock -alt -scan -autoDelta 3
Frame 0 as KeyFrame.
Frame: 1 as Key Frame: 95017 as Delta Frame: 109123
Frame: 2 as Key Frame: 95057 as Delta Frame: 108831
Frame: 3 as Key Frame: 95558 as Delta Frame: 108781
Frame: 4 as Key Frame: 95441 as Delta Frame: 108194
Frame: 5 as Key Frame: 95763 as Delta Frame: 107765
Frame: 6 as Key Frame: 95413 as Delta Frame: 106442
Frame: 7Exception in thread "main" java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: -777
        at deltaC.run(deltaC.java:504)
        at hdiffC.encode(hdiffC.java:228)
        at hdiffC.run(hdiffC.java:201)
        at hdiffC.mainInst(hdiffC.java:131)
        at hdiffC.main(hdiffC.java:42)

As you may see, you program runs ok on the interpreter and fails at different points depending on when it gets natively compiled by HotSpot. The server VM uses a substantially different compiler than the client VM, this is why you program does not fail on the latter.

I'd suggest that you file a bug report at Sun and use the client VM for now. You may also wish to try IBM VM which is often faster than HotSpot Server on this type of applications.

Out of curiosity, how much faster is the JET-compiled version?
68  Java Game APIs & Engines / JOGL Development / BUG - JNI misuse on: 2004-03-12 11:58:14
I have compiled a couple jogl demos with JET, only to discover that they crash as follows:
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CANVAS GL IS: net.java.games.jogl.impl.windows.WindowsGLImpl
CANVAS GLU IS: net.java.games.jogl.impl.GLUImpl
Exception in thread "Thread-1" java.lang.ClassCastException: net.java.games.jogl.impl.wind
ows.JAWT_Win32DrawingSurfaceInfo

Our engineers have identified the cause of the problem to be JNI misuse.

Specifically, native method net.java.games.jogl.impl.platformInfo0 should return an instance of JAWT_PlatformInfo interface.

In fact, it returns an instance of net.java.games.jogl.impl.windows.JAWT_Win32DrawingSurfaceInfo class which does not implement that interface.

Hotspot does not perform interface-cast and simply ignores this fact, but JET attempts to make the cast and fails.

The latest nightly build seems to have this problem too.
69  Java Game APIs & Engines / OpenGL Development / Re: So I'm using Jet eval on: 2004-03-12 04:40:09
Quote
Used the sample "hello world" provided with the eval pro version, and the executable produced was of size 2.1 mb...
Man this is such a joke Roll Eyes

Well this is due to the bloated 1.4 API which has too many interdependencies.
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 >java -version
java version "1.4.2_03"
Java(TM) 2 Runtime Environment, Standard Edition (build 1.4.2_03-b02)
Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.4.2_03-b02, mixed mode)

> java -verbose hello | grep "\[Loaded" | wc -l
    259

As you may see, the 1.4.2_03 VM has to load 258 Java 2 API classes just to execute "Hello, World".

Anyway, that EXE 7zips to about 750K, which is much less than the size of the JRE. You can save extra 60K by disabling inlining completely in the project file:
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-inline


Then, 2MB is just the minimum overhead for J2SE 1.4.2. Alien Flux 1.5 compiles to less than 5MB EXE without resources (images, sound, security provider classes, etc.), which 7zips to about 1.5MB. If you choose to bind resources, the result will be 13MB EXE (7zips to 9.5MB), which only needs two LWJGL native method DLLS to run.

With Java 2 1.3, the EXE would be much smaller. When running the hello sample on JRE 1.3.1_10, only 181 platform API classes get loaded.

I would therefore suggest that you try JetPerfect on a bigger project.
70  Java Game APIs & Engines / OpenGL Development / Re: So I'm using Jet eval on: 2004-03-11 10:15:33
Quote
As a side note, I noticed there was a "Personal Edition" of Jet available. Is it possible to makes .exe with that (although actually I'm going to want to support AWT in it)?

Kev

Yes, and it does support AWT and Swing and all of Java 2 except custom classloaders and dynamic loading of classes unknown at compile time (e.g. dynamic proxies), but there is one little problem - you cannot distribute the executables it creates. You can use it, for instance, to accelerate a third-party Java program you run on the same system.
71  Java Game APIs & Engines / OpenGL Development / Re: So I'm using Jet eval on: 2004-03-11 10:09:42
Quote
But how do I use JetPerfect?
The evaluation version itself is the pro edition as far as I know, and JetPerfect is said to be included in the Pro edition,and yet I can't put my hand on it...

It is right in the Evaluation Package, but we have not implemented a GUI for it yet (it needs to be very well thought over and we are somewhere in the middle of that process...). You have to use it from the command line. Refer to the User's Guide for details.

You may wish to use the sample project from samples\JetPerfect under your JET installation directory as a basis for your project.

Note: You may need to change

-Djet.default.classloader:bootstrap

to

-Djet.default.classloader:application

in the build.bat file.
72  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Faster, smaller, simpler: yours for $99 on: 2004-03-01 10:45:09
Quote
But if you have a compiled binary for me, I can upload it to the SourceForge site and everybody will be able to compare himself!

No problem except download size. Fluying Guns needs AWT, so the whole JRE has to be either bundled or preinstalled for the executable to work, as well as Java3D. Without JetPerfect Global Optimizer, the "all-included" download is 35MB (JRE 1.4.2_03 + Java3D 1.3), the executables-only download is 16MB.  

With JetPerfect, the generated EXE is about 11MB (zips to 6MB). However, I could not put it to work on first attempt (got an NPE in Thread_1), and I have little means to figure out what causes the exception. FG developers would have done this much faster than me because they know how to enable logging in their app and so on.
73  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Faster, smaller, simpler: yours for $99 on: 2004-02-27 11:18:21
Quote
Just wanted to comment about my only single contact with Jet.

I compiled FlyingGuns with it. Took very long (1/2h?), the result was HUGE and sucked at runtime. Very unsmooth.

I'm suspicious about those tools in terms of complex projects. Maybe I'm unfair bc. I did not give it a second chance .... but that's my experience with it.

Out of curiosity, I have compiled the FlyingGuns demo with JET 3.5 using default settings. On my antique system (Celeron 400MHz/256 MB RAM/TNT2 Ultra) the frame rate is about 15-17 FPS on HotSpot 1.4.2_02 Client and sometimes it drops to 5 due to GC activity. With JET, I get about 17-20 FPS and it never drops below 10. Under HotSpot Server, it flickered for about 30secs then started to work with BIG pauses and FPS about 12-14.

I used default settings for all three VMs except setting the heap to 128MB. I am noew going to try the JetPerfect Global OPtimizer on this demo and then can send you or post here the respective project files.
74  Game Development / Newbie & Debugging Questions / Re: Java for a game on Pc/Consoles in 2005? on: 2004-02-12 09:18:25
Quote
Couldn't care less meself - what's the point of using a cross-platform language and then having to code directly down to a very platform-specific API?

Suppose you are used to program in x86 assembly and your only target is x86 - why would you switch to C (which is much more portable)? Because you would write your programs faster.

For me the main point of using Java is not its cross-platformness, but programmer's productivity.
75  Game Development / Newbie & Debugging Questions / Re: Java for a game on Pc/Consoles in 2005? on: 2004-02-08 06:28:06
Quote
Will there be a Jet or GCJ version ready by of 2005, in order to compile your Java game or Java parts of the game to a PS3?

I regret we (Excelsior) do not have plans for PlayStation support at the moment.
76  Game Development / Newbie & Debugging Questions / Re: Java for a game on Pc/Consoles in 2005? on: 2004-02-08 06:26:31
Quote
Having said that: if the market's there, Excelsior USA have every reason to produce a cross-compiler.

There is no reason why even today a PS2 game could not actually be coded in Java if Excelsior produced a compiler for it and someone wrapped the PS2's functions with a JNI interface.

My experiences of Jet are that it has a particularly good memory overhead compared to the standard JVM and performance at least the equal of C++. It is, truly, the best of both worlds. You get the rapid development and test cycle of Java and then you get the other advantages of C++ when you cross compile it for the console. (You listening dleskov Wink ?)


Well, we could of course make a cross-compiler, but we would need a lot of information and technical support from the platform vendor. An OEM agreement with them would be even better. But these are impossible to achieve via front door, because we are a very small company compared to Sony.

Does anyone here has good connections at Sony (or Nintendo)? Can you put them in touch with us?

I recall I have heard some time ago Sony worked with Sun on someting called Java Game Profile...

D.
77  Discussions / Community & Volunteer Projects / Re: The Alien Flux Development Diary (aka XAP) on: 2003-02-28 12:16:48
Besides, how do you find the new GC in JET 3.0? Is it causing considerable pauses? Did you compare memory consumption figures? Did you try tweaking the memory manager as described in Application Considerations / Application Memory Usage Tuning?
78  Discussions / Community & Volunteer Projects / Re: foible in Excelsior JET on: 2003-02-28 04:34:21
Quote
Discovered an interesting foible in Jet. The global optimiser chucks out unreferenced private methods. And so it should. However, it unwisely chucks out readObject() and writeObject() methods which are of course only used by serialisation. A bit irritating. (Dleskov? You still on these boards?)

Well I gave up before the whole thing switched to YaBB, as most people here were strongly against native compilation... But noticed java-gaming.org in the referrer log and - I am here again. Smiley

Anyway, for guaranteed response you should have reported the problem to us at
java@excelsior-usa.com or through  this Web form. We accept defect reports from everyone - and you are now the valued customer using the Professional Edition!
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