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31  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Excelsior jet standard vs. pro editions on: 2011-02-17 09:47:16
You are mixing "JVM" and "JRE".

The Excelsior JET Runtime contains, and has always contained a JVM, so applications compiled with it never required a second JVM. But, prior to version 4.0 only the applications not using Swing/AWT and compiled with the Professional Edition could work without the JRE. To cut the long story short, the reason was not the JVM, but the standard library.

The situation is indeed much different now. JRE is never required anymore because we have since licensed Java from Sun and included the standard Java SE library with Excelsior JET.

However, I would still recommend you stick with the Professional Edition, for two reasons:

1. It provides the capabilities to improve the startup time and reduce the download size of compiled applications.

2. It is available under a special licensing program. Under certain circumstances, it may cost you less than the list price of the Standard Edition.
32  Java Game APIs & Engines / OpenGL Development / Wanted: real-world apps to test & benchmark Excelsior JET 5.0 on: 2007-02-19 13:12:43
Dear LWJGL users,

I work for the company that makes the Java to native code compiler Excelsior JET. We have just posted a very early announcement of version 5.0, in which we shall introduce a feature that we think may be of particular interest to members of the LWJGL community.

In short, you will have a perfectly legal option to omit selected parts of  the Java SE API such as AWT and Swing when including the Java runtime with your LWJGL games and applications, thus substantially reducing the download size of your product.

Now we are seeking real applications to test and benchmark this new feature and overall performance. If you think optimizing and packaging your game, application, or research project with Excelsior JET may benefit your end users, please reply to this topic or email us.

In exchange, we offer:

  • free Excelsior JET 5.0 Pro licenses - to non-commercial projects
  • deep discounts on our products and services - to commercial product vendors
  • option to include your application in the Excelsior JET Gallery - to all participants

For complete information and for making comments and questions about Excelsior JET and this new feature, please refer to our blog.

With best regards,

Dmitry Leskov
Excelsior LLC
33  Game Development / Newbie & Debugging Questions / Re: What are my options for creating a windows .exe? on: 2006-07-29 05:54:57
6. Compile natively with Jet
Complexity: pretty fiddly
Advantages: can't use a lot of Java classes. Very high performance.
Disadvantages: Expensive. Use any AWT at all and you might as well bundle the whole VM. Difficult to work with.

The new Excelsior JET 4.5 challenges disadvantages 2 and 3 to a considerable extent and we have a special deal for Java game authors - check my announcement in the Tools forum
34  Java Game APIs & Engines / Tools Discussion / Re: [ANN] Excelsior JET 4.5 - reduce the download size of your game on: 2006-07-29 05:47:51
While my colleagues at Excelsior are helping you out, I'll post a short explanation of how Excelsior JET 4.5 reduces the download size here.

Consider two simple facts:

1. Any given Java application uses only a subset of the standard Java SE API. A server-side app is unlikely to use Swing, whereas a game is unlikely to use JDBC.

2. The Sun license does not permit you to subset the API when you redistribute the Java SE technology, even if it is a private copy that only your application will use.

What Excelsior JET global optimizer does is it analyzes your application jars and determines the subset of the standard API required for your application to work. It then compiles the classes of that subset together with your application classes and links them all into a single executable. When you package your application for distribution with Excelsior Installer selected as the back-end, the remaining API classes are compressed using pack200, and then all files are compressed using LZMA.

Now, suppose the the analyzer has failed to detect usage of a particular API class. This may happen if the class is not explicitly imported but loaded dynamically via refelction or JNI. No problem: the "unused" API classes will be unpack200ed during installation and the class will be JIT compiled. So this technique is safe and in full compliance with the license.

To sum it up, the less intensive is your usage of the standard API, the smaller the resulting installer will be. Perhaps the biggest save may be achieved by using  SWT and LWJGL respecitvely for GUI and 3D graphics, as that would enable the global optimizer to rule out AWT and Swing.

Any questions, please post here.

Finally, we have ideas on how to further reduce download size and disk footprint of Java applications without violating the license, so stay tuned!

35  Java Game APIs & Engines / Tools Discussion / [ANN] Excelsior JET 4.5 - reduce the download size of your game on: 2006-07-11 14:50:02
Excelsior JET, a JVM with Ahead-Of-Time compiler, has been updated to version 4.5.

New in this release:

1. Now Excelsior JET may help you reduce the download size of your Java applications, thanks to the brand new global optimizer and advanced compression algorithms.

2. The use of the global optimizer also reduces application memory usage, especially on Linux.

3. Excelsior Installer is now available on both Windows and Linux.

4. Ease-of-use enhancements, new installation toolkit features, and JIT compiler speedup are also among the major improvements.

Excelsior JET is certified Java Compatible on a number of Windows and Linux platforms. Added to the list in this release is SUSE Linux Enterprise Server 9.

Please visit our Web site for complete information or download your fully functional Excelsior JET 4.5 Evaluation Package.

Finally, our pricing targets corporate customers, but we are willing to trade discounts of up to 100% for assistance in spreading the word about our product.  Have you created a quality Java game that would benefit from being optimized and packaged by Excelsior JET? Would you consider telling others on your Web site, in the game docs, and/or elsewhere about those benefits? If yes, please contact us to discuss the opportunities.

Please feel free to forward this information to your friends and colleagues who you think might be interested in Excelsior JET.

With best regards,

Dmitry Leskov
Excelsior LLC
36  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Distributing Sun server-vm on: 2005-11-01 11:54:50
Compiling with JET is legal as long as you don't distribute parts of the Sun JRE with it, which you will have to if you use any AWT/Swing in your app. If you do, you have to ship the awt dll with your app to make it work, and if you ship that dll you have to bundle the rest of the JRE with it.
So it might make sense if you don't use any Sun JRE parts, otherwise it only makes sense if you absolutely need JET's performance.

The above was not quite true for the previous versions of Excelsior JET and does not apply at all to the latest Excelsior JET 4.0 which contains fully licensed Java SE API and makes executables that do not need the Sun JRE to run, no matter which APIs they use.
37  Java Game APIs & Engines / Tools Discussion / Re: NSIS installer on: 2005-07-25 07:46:08
Has anyone got a simple script for this that can check for java to be installed (including version number)? I'm pretty much just gettin started and I'm aware that their archives have some stuff, but it's rough finding a good starting point and I'm interested in what other people using it specifically for java projects use to deal with java's little intricacies. Having the installer install java if it's needed automatically would be pretty nice. If no one has anything like this I'll try to post the script I end up making (working off an example I found in their archive now).
Not sure if this has ready to use scripts, but if you are using Eclipse, it may be worth checking out anyway:
38  Discussions / General Discussions / Re: Dynamic versus ahead of time compiler on: 2005-07-25 06:53:44
Assuming, that currently executed native code is influenced by the input to the application, the question would be which dedicated binaries produced by the JIT the Runtime should be cached?
If everything is compiled to native code, then application's input has no influence on that code in most cases.

JIT Caching has been present in Excelsior JET since 2001. If a class is loaded that does not match the cached version for any reason (bytecode change, different classloader, import dependency, etc.), it is simply recompiled. You may also recompile the cached classes into a single DLL for better performance and shorter startup.
39  Game Development / Performance Tuning / Re: Escape Analysis on: 2005-03-28 07:36:14
I'm in no position to argue what licensing schemes you should have, but a suggestion would be that you provide a free, case-by-case, no-support license for open source projects. The license could require the projects to explicitly state that the binary was produced with Jet, giving you free publicity for your product. I think both parties could benefit from such a license.

This is quite possible. As I said, we do not need money in all cases. Publicity is more important.

We think a bug in our product must be fixed regardless of whether the user who has encountered is a paying customer. So in fact we do provide support to all users, the differences are in priority, responce times, escalation level, etc.
40  Game Development / Performance Tuning / Re: Escape Analysis on: 2005-03-28 05:04:59
Cool. You don't have any plans to offer a free license for open source projects?

First of all, note that Excelsior is revenue-funded, and providing support costs money. So we have to be careful about giving away stuff if we want to preserve the quality of our support.

We have plans to offer a special license for non-commercial and non-institutional usage, regardless of whether the project is open source. Considering the first paragraph, it will be  cheap, but likely not free. But we would surely give it to you for free in exchange for something valuable to us. For instance, you may participate in our beta test program or promote our product on your Web site or elsewhere, etc.

We also have plans for subscriptions and pay-as-you-go licensing, so as to remove the upfront cost barrier on commercial usage patterns such as shareware.
41  Game Development / Performance Tuning / Re: Escape Analysis on: 2005-03-28 04:49:46
Can you give me some numbers?  Say against Java5, how much of an improvement do you see in your apps?  

We are running various benchmarks against the latest version of HotSpot client and server and JRockit right now and will publish them on our Web site soon. We will also publish all scripts, project files and instructions required to run the tests on your system.

If you do not trust vendor benchmarks, why not try it yourself against your own tests or, even better, a real app?
42  Game Development / Performance Tuning / Re: Escape Analysis on: 2005-03-28 04:04:33
<--- I recommend Jet, it really is as good as they claim. Pro version could be a little cheaper though eh?

We are running an v3.7 introductory offer by April 15th. Pro license price is 1/3 off, and you can get Windows and Linux versions together at the price of one of them. Upgrade prices are also reduced. If this is cheap enough, go download the eval, but mind that you have less than 20 days left. Smiley
43  Java Game APIs & Engines / Tools Discussion / [ANN] Excelsior JET 3.7 - Java VM + AOT compiler on: 2005-03-26 06:14:28
We have just released version 3.7 of Excelsior JET, a Java VM with AOT compiler, for Windows and Linux.

Major improvements since version 3.6:

- J2SE 5.0 API support

- New runtime optimized for parallel execution (Professional Edition only)

- Application performance improvements

Full list of new features and changes

Evaluation Package download

Introductory offer (valid until April 15th)
44  Game Development / Performance Tuning / Re: Escape Analysis on: 2005-03-26 06:07:31
For those interested in trying out escape analysis in Java today, we have just released Excelsior JET 3.7, which has escape analysis much improved and object explosion implemented.

45  Game Development / Performance Tuning / Re: performance 'hiccups' in IBM & BEA JVMs on: 2004-06-23 05:00:09
Let me know if you're still interested and what exactly I need to give you.

Sure we are interested. By the time we return from JavaOne (Monday July 5th), please prepare a complete system that works on HotSpot, and instructions or how to run it, check that it runs correctly and measure its performance (if applicable). Email me at dleskov at excelsior dash usa dot com when you are ready.

46  Game Development / Performance Tuning / Re: performance 'hiccups' in IBM & BEA JVMs on: 2004-06-18 05:13:57
I'll try to download the Linux version of Jet (sorry, should've mentioned the platform is Linux) when I get a chance and see how I go.  Problem is, there's so many bits to be compiled (web server, app server, etc) I think I'll struggle to get it all working successfully.

Well, this sounds very interesting. We are in need of some real-world Java server applications to evaluate the performance differences delivered by our product. Could you possibly provide your application to us (under an NDA?) We would set up the necessary project files and build scripts and email them back to you. No purchase obligations of course.

47  Game Development / Performance Tuning / Re: performance 'hiccups' in IBM & BEA JVMs on: 2004-06-17 03:55:54
I would say you need to profile your server's memory usage patterns. It seems full garbage collection cycles are initiated from time to time. Perhaps using a few pools instead of always allocating a new object will change things.

I would be interested in testing our product, Excelsior JET, against your app. It is  a Java VM with AOT compiler and it uses a synthetic GC algorithm with reasonably short pauses. But I won't be able to do that before July 10 or so, because we are about to release version 3.6 and then we shall present it at JavaOne. In the meantime, you are welcome to download the evaluation package and give it a try.
48  Game Development / Game Mechanics / Re: Physics performance challenge to J.Kesselman.. on: 2004-04-20 03:02:37
While you guys are bandying about how best to generate and visualize physics ( a much abused term if I may say so ) people in other domains are doing some fancy things with Java to test Java's number crunching ability to the fullest. Check out this link from my app.:
Will have to warn you that those pics are a little too big.

We plan to implement support for SSE2, etc. in future versions of our compiler and we would love to play with such a real-life Java number cruncher application then. If it is not going to be freely available, would it still be possible for us to get a copy?
49  Game Development / Game Mechanics / Re: Physics performance challenge to J.Kesselman.. on: 2004-04-19 05:01:17
Anyway I partially agree with Athomas that there is no point trying to convert C/C++ users.  Just make great games in Java and be happy.

There is no point for Java users do that, indeed. We are not talking religion or MLM here. But it makes much sense for Java vendors, led by Sun, so it is apparently Jeff's job, and part of my job too.

I would sign under the paragraphs of your post regarding the use of C++ and Java together as appropriate.

Still I think a community-developed Java Game Benchmark Suite would be a good thing, even if it only allows you to compare different Java implementations and/or hardware. Perhaps it could be built as SPEC JVM98, which is a collection of real life programs. Board game, collision detection, map generation, audio/video codec, AI, scripting, you name it.
50  Game Development / Game Mechanics / Re: Physics performance challenge to J.Kesselman.. on: 2004-04-18 10:33:01
Although it doesn't fit in with my original challenge to Sun and their JVM, in the interests of gaining knowledge it can play on the Java side, (you will still be limited to pure Java). However the challenge was to prove that Java can match native code performance across the primary platforms Jeff mentioned (Mac OS X and Win32), so you had better get porting your compiler.
Would you let us finish the Linux/x86 port first? Smiley More seriously, we have other targets in mind apart from the Mac.

Then, why should Sun be to blame about poor Java performance on Macs? Apple has licensed J2SE, go tell them to speed it up. Let's compare on platforms that Sun supports (though I doubt there are many Solaris gamers out there. Smiley )

In any case, it would be more interesting to compare on Win32 and PS2, but that brings us back to the major flaw in Jeff's "Java is good for cross-platform game development" statement - the shortage of JVMs for game consoles. C++ programmers caring about portability can get CodeWarrior for Win32, Mac, Linux(multiple CPUs), PS2, GameCube, Palm OS after all...

If you do have a Mac version, and are willing to throw in $500, great.
We would consider throwing in a JET Pro license. Would that do?
51  Game Development / Game Mechanics / Re: Physics performance challenge to J.Kesselman.. on: 2004-04-18 08:29:59
I just recalled that Sun were showcasing JET-compiled Alien Flux in one of their JavaOne booths last year. So JET should play on the Java side. Smiley
52  Game Development / Game Mechanics / Re: Physics performance challenge to J.Kesselman.. on: 2004-04-18 08:26:51
JET doesn't support Mac, so it wouldn't be possible to do the test Andy is suggesting using that compiler.
It makes more sense to run the test on Win32, which was the major desktop gaming platform last time I checked. I think Andy mentioned Win32 as an option.

I don't have any objections to compiled Java in principle, but I would consider it a third entry, neither 'Java' or 'Native'.
Why so? JET Pro can compile any J2SE program. Classes that may not be compiled ahead-of-time will be compiled just-in-time. So JET Pro is essentially a JVM.
53  Java Game APIs & Engines / OpenGL Development / Re: The JCD utils :D on: 2004-04-18 06:55:00
Sounds a good start. What about the percentage of  "succesful starts" though?

Well, how do you count them unless your game is inherently multiplayer and thus requires connection to your game server?

(I do not like software that requires Internet connection, whereas its purpose suggests it should not. I know many people who use personal firewalls and would throw away your game immediately if it attempts to silently open an Internet connection.

Besides, what is the percentage of JNLP application authors who care about placing that <offline-allowed /> tag in their .jnlp files?

This is why I suggest to count the purchases that were results of these and those dowloads. If fact, for the author the sales volume is the ultimate measure of success (whether his sofwtare is a shareware game or something else.) To get rid of cookies, you can make your game display on startup or exit a special offer code, which would be different for EXE and JNLP.

Of course, there is also free software. If your game is free, you can still make it require no-cost registration and count the number of registrations instead of purchases.

Besides, there are actually three categories to compare:
  • JNLP/WebStart
  • Java-aware installers/EXE wrappers
  • Ahead-of-time Java compilers
54  Game Development / Game Mechanics / Re: Physics performance challenge to J.Kesselman.. on: 2004-04-18 06:29:45
Regarding the contest, I wonder if you will consider Java natively compiled ahead-of-time, and if yes, do you think it should be playing on the Java side, or the native code side? Smiley
55  Game Development / Game Mechanics / Re: Physics performance challenge to J.Kesselman.. on: 2004-04-18 06:23:27
Actually thats sort of rhetorical because it doesnt matter either way. As I already explained to Mr. Larder in private, and as you folks all already know, we in the GTG (actually  it wasn't the GTG yet) were at least as disappointed as you folks about the fact that the PS2 VM talks failed to produce results.

We haven't forgotten the importance of this.  It contineus to be a hot button on our list, and we continue to persue avenues to get you guys VMs on consoles.  As I told him.  you guys will be the first to be notified if anything really solid happens but I'm not going to get your hopes up again too early.  Some of us do learn from our experiences.

I cannot believe I am reading this. Did you guys in the GTG ever visit the Sony PS2 Tools and Middleware Web site? It says if you want to create a development tool for PS2, you can sigh an NDA and get a three-year royalty free license to access PS2 development environment and technical information at 1,250,000 Japanese Yen, which is about $12,000.

Now, why cannot you just sign the necessary papers, pay the license fee and port J2SE to PS2 instead of holding all those "talks"and whatever?

Besides, there are three C++ compiler vendors on the list of licensees - Metrowerks, CodePlay and SN Systems.
56  Java Game APIs & Engines / OpenGL Development / Re: The JCD utils :D on: 2004-04-16 11:34:09
* The reality is that "gamers" will download what they need to play a game they want to play.

I think there will be many such gamers only if your game is a true hit (a sequel to a true hit), you are known for previously making true hits, or you run a huge advertisng campaign. Imagine Doom IV will need JRE 1.8.2_11 - the Sun Java download server will think it is a DoS attack. Smiley Otherwise, there are so many shareware games out there to try...

* The reality is that "gamers" won't, they'll just give up.

This is my experience. In a general case, if I download a piece of software (not necessarily a game) to address some problem and it does not install or run on first attempt, I usually delete it and forget it, unless (i) I used the previous version and was satisfied with it; (ii) I could not find an alternative or (iii) I have learned from somebody it will solve my problem completely, so that I have motivation for trying circumvent the problem.

* The reality is that "gamers" would rather get everything on CD.

For a large game this is probably true. But if you have 100MB of textures, adding the JRE does not make any difference anyway.

* The reality is that "gamers" would rather write everything themselfs.


Actually, the reality is that gamers fall into rather alot of categories, hence the opening for lots of different types of games. Any statistics you draw would be open to interpretation in one way or another.

Ok, let's say we are talking about shareware games which demo versions, if written in C++, would not have exceed 5MB in size.

What you want to see is use cases. Unfortunately, this puts web start at bottom pegging since there arn't any games that use it and have been commercial successful. Obviously there are a fair few that have been using a .exe.

Alien Flux is WebStartable.

However, it wasn't that long ago that no 3D game had been commerically successful. Or any game for that matter..

3D makes a difference in gaming experience, whereas Java makes a difference in game development experience. So your analogy is not correct.

Just offer both if it doesn't hurt you too much.


PS. Also, the 5MB limit applies for a small subset of games, not for every case.

See above. Also, I do not think the subset you are talking about is that small.

PPS. I still don't really understand JET, why can't I compile using AWT/Swing ?

You can, but you would have to include the JRE with your product. Click here for the explanation.
57  Java Game APIs & Engines / OpenGL Development / Re: The JCD utils :D on: 2004-04-16 11:07:44
We might very well be interested in doing something along those lines for Tribal Trouble.

Email me at dleskov at excelsior dash usa dot com.
58  Java Game APIs & Engines / OpenGL Development / Re: The JCD utils :D on: 2004-04-16 06:44:48
I think it's already been mentioned that this is a "bug" that's already being fixed for 1.5 ?

Ok, but do you know a gamer who has 1.5 installed but who is not a Java developer? Smiley

If someone can think of a fair way of doing this, then we could run the test on JGF with multiple games (whose authors were willing to take part). However, only if it's going to be done scientifically, which means starting by stating a hypothesis and then describing how that will be confirmed or disproved.

It would be moronic to assume you could just put two URL's side-by-side and get any meaningful results; a lot more thought is needed than that. Both in visual presentation (how do you measure the bias of people who don't care; how do you measure the bias of people who see the word "windows" and click on it, not caring whether it's an EXE or a JNLP? etc) and in technical implementation (how do you correctly measure the number of failed downloads that then succeeded later, e.g. after downloading the JRE, thereby not artificially inflating the "failure rate"? etc)
How about the following scenario:

1. A visitor comes to the game Web site and clicks the "Download" link.

2. If a certain cookie ZZZ is present and its value begins with "JNLP:" or "EXE:", go to step 5.

3. The server tries to set the permanent cookie ZZZ with value "JNLP:" or "EXE:", chosen randomly with 1:1 probability, concatenated with randomly generated visitor ID.

4. The server redirects to another script that checks if the cookie was set successfully. If not, it serves the combined download page and does not count this visit.

5. The server serves the respective download page depending on whether the cookie begins with "JNLP:" or "EXE:", and amends the tracking log.

A download script can be used to track EXE downloads, but tracking JNLP downloads can be somewhat tricky given that e.g. AOL users connect through multiple proxies. At the very least, you could track download initiations.

The same cookie may be used to track sales.


I also humbly suggest that E would have to be careful in their involvement with this, since it *potentially* makes it look like Excelsior is fighting a battle "against" webstart. Presumably your actual interest is in e.g. getting data to decide whether you need to add JWS-capabilities to JET exe's.

Well, our actual interest is to (hopefully) show that good old EXE (not necessarily JET-generated) has advantage over Webstart in terms of your game download and sales figures. Do not get me wrong - Webstart is great for the enterprise environment, where all workstations are under your control, you have got system administrators to JNLP-enable all browsers and install the same JRE on workstations, network is fast, users can be trained, and so on. But as a consumer willing to try your game, I do not care if your game was written in Java, C, or FORTRAN. I just want to get it to my desktop with as little effort and bandwidth as possible.

This issue is not limited to Java - I (as a person) do not have the .NET framework on my computer, and I will not download any software package that requires it or includes it.
59  Java Game APIs & Engines / OpenGL Development / Re: The JCD utils :D on: 2004-04-15 05:37:27

People are used to alot of things, but that doesn't neccesarly mean, that they like all of em. If you can make something easier, people will like that.

Just installing a demo is a rather long mindnumbing task - with jws it's just one click away. One click and I can do something else until it's done with downloading/installing. That's really great. Tell me what's so good about: download, wait till it's done, locate the installer, double click the installer, wait, ok, yes, ok, there, ok, wait,  ok, yes launch and then ok?

Nothing. And even non techy people agree there.

Oh and these empty folders with a ini file left or zombie registry entrys... I won't miss em Wink

Well, how do you uninstall a Webstart app on Windows? It does not appear under Add/Remove Programs and this is where most users will look. And please do not tell me there are no zombie files left on your disk by the Webstart engine.

Anyway, all this sounds fine, but is still pure theory. How about a little practice? Make one game available as a WebStart URL and as a JET-compiled EXE download, count the number of succesful launches/downloads of each and of purchases that were results of those launches and downloads for a few months, and publish the results.

We would provide a temporary Excelsior JET license if your game is entirely LWJGL based (i.e. it does not use AWT/Swing). No purchase obligations, nothing. Just tell us the numbers.

Any volunteers?
60  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: How to search for bugs between jvm impelmentat on: 2004-04-05 10:15:58
We would be very interested in using your codec as a benchmark. Can we have snapshots of (i) your Java sources, taken right before you start rewriting them in C, and (ii) of your C sources, taken right after they are rewritten?
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