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1  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-29 20:19:37
I know, they are also too old and some of DEs are modified. In my link the desktop environments are mostly vanilla (or they come with themes of Ubuntu derivates). There are also a description and some numbers.
2  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-29 20:10:27
This site is better
3  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-29 19:03:11
- It's not the position I don't like, it's how it works. IMHO the best UI yet developed in this regard is still the Windows XP taskbar. Go on, kill me. Nothing's come close for utility, aesthetic or usefulness yet. You can see exactly what's running all the time and instantly switch to it with a click; and you can have a little resizable panel of mini icons for all the stuff you use constantly; and on the right it's got all the little system daemons and the clock & calendar; and you can drag the whole thing wherever you like. It's great (shame they broke it in Win7).

This sounds to like you were talking about almost every desktop environment. You can have the XP look with KDE or LXDE... You see, choice is good.

- See earlier in thread why Mac screen menu sucks. Plus it's broken for various apps, randomly, though that's hearsay because I've never hung around long enough to find out.

It works only for GTK and Qt plus some other apps. And it doesn't work with apps started as root. I know, it's inconsistent, but Unity developers can't do anything to fix it.

- I don't want scrollbars to save space; I've always got lots of space and scrollbars are only there when there's far more stuff than space anyway. I use always visible scrollbars to indicate that there is, indeed, more stuff, and to show always how much of that stuff you can see, approximately. I also like them being inside the window because to my mind a window is the absolute border of a thing. I don't like things extending outside the rectangle; again, it simply upsets my sense of aesthetics. Maybe I'm just bonkers though.

Then deactivate it. You can also deactivate the global menu.
4  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-29 16:15:12
... dock thing on the left,

I explained it already. It because all the modern screens have the 16:9 aspect ratio, often with a low resolution like 1366x768. I makes more sense on the left.

the system wide menu bar thing at the top
What's wrong with it?

and scrollbars.

They work and they save some space. I don't see a problem there.

a few pixels of "whitespace" around certain GUI elements on the menu bar

This is a bug.
5  Game Development / Newbie & Debugging Questions / Re: Shooting/Moving Towards coordinates? on: 2012-06-29 16:00:20
Or he can use my approach. He just needs to put the code lines to the game update loop to set the position, and then to read it in the rendering loop.

Well, he needs 2 classes. One for the bullet, one for the character. Each of them needs the x and y value to set the position and the angle. The angle of a bullet is fixed, just take the direction of the character when you shoot. The angle of the character is dynamic. I don't know how you want to move the character but that's easy. Just rotate the character by pressing left or right keys or let rotate him by the mouse and calculate the angle. That's it.
6  Game Development / Newbie & Debugging Questions / Re: Shooting/Moving Towards coordinates? on: 2012-06-29 12:40:47
bullet.setX(bullet.getX() + stepSizePerFrame * Math.cos(Math.toRadians(bullet.getAngle())));
bullet.setY(bullet.getY() + stepSizePerFrame * Math.sin(Math.toRadians(bullet.getAngle())));

This shows you how can you can move a bullet with a fixed angle. Same for your character, you just need a dynamic angle, you can change the angle of the character by rotating him (for example let him look at the mouse pointer) then just calculate the angle. For the angle of a bullet you can take the angle of the character, when you press the shoot button.
7  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-29 10:57:04
1. He didn't say anything about Unity. He was just referring to stats that show the user numbers of Ubuntu and Mint to compare them.
2. The numbers don't even say how many Linux users have Ubuntu. For example...
Linux Other - 1,356 M
Linux Ubuntu - 1,088 M
Linux Mint - 12.6 M
So when the system couldn't recognize the client, it just put it under "Linux Other". Well, at least they show the relative numbers, Ubuntu has 90x bigger user base than Mint.
8  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-29 07:30:06
How old are you? 70? Just count the pixels with the mouse, it's at least 7px. That's science. Enough to catch it, well at least if you don't have shaking hands of a 70 years old. I actually don't know how could something like this be a problem, I've never seen a problem there.

No point of an OS? Aha. That's an argument? I mean, what's the point of Windows or every other OS? It's like to say, I like football (with almost everyone watching and playing it), so why do we need basketball, rugby, ice hockey etc.? The other thing is, how can't you find anything? If you install Windows you find Wordpad and Paint as the Office Suite, with almost every Linux distribution you get the best free Office Suite LibreOffice. Same for the browser, all you get from Windows is the Internet Explorer, on Linux Firefox, Chromium or some other WebKit based browser. Do you seriously use Internet Explorer because you don't find anything else to use and you like it? That's for the desktop. Now to the whole market. Linux is the most widely used OS. You probably just don't know that you use it already. It's everywhere, servers, phones, routers, TVs, microwaves...

I don't know what problems some of users have here, probably just too old to learn something new (e.g. in that case to get used to another OS). So have fun with Win 8 and newer. Cheesy And support the OS monopoly, it's, you know, better when there is no choice and no open standards or software (e.g. don't use Java, OpenGL or OpenAL for your games, Firefox, Chrome, LibreOffice, VLC etc. if you can use C#, DirectX, Microsoft Office, Internet Explorer, Windows Media Player and so on). I'm out.
9  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-28 17:27:41
I seem to have about a 2-pixel range...I'd not call that big.

I can catch it with my touchpad easily, I would say it's 7-8px. The window border and the shadow of it.
10  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-28 12:46:41
Ubuntu. But they forked a lot and they have own apps. The OS looks nice but I would wait for Luna release because the stable release is based on Ubuntu 10.10 which is old and not supported anymore (I think).
11  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-27 21:39:31
Couldn't figure out how to get OpenJDK 7 to be the default JVM - even installing it wasn't exactly easy.

Installing is easy, just open the Software Center and search for it. You can also install OpenJDK 6 together with 7, there is no GUI to choose the default JVM but a command: sudo update-alternatives --config java

Window edges still hard to grab with mouse.

Not with Unity, there is a bigger edge at the bottom of windows, easy to catch.

Overall though I'd say it's rather better than Ubuntu for being familiar in its ways rather than alien and weird.

It's not better. It looks like Windows a little with a panel at the bottom and a usual menu. Unity doesn't have a menu, there is the so called "dash" (with more functions than just a menu), a global menu and the launcher. It's not worse than Windows or something else, it's different, so you need to get used to it.

Still hate: Nautilus, package management, general UI rough edges, ton of installed software I don't care about which just a) confuses me and b) maybe discourages people getting better stuff if it exists (possibly?)

Nautilus: What is to hate about it? It's really easy to use but still powerful.
Package managment: Seriously? You don't like a centralized repository where you can install apps easily which will also be updated automatically?
Ton of software: There is not that much software at least in case of Ubuntu. Firefox, Thunderbird, LibreOffice, Epiphany (for chats), Rhythmbox and Totem (music and video), Shotwell (photo management), Software Center, Ubuntu One (Cloud), Gwibber (Twitter, Facebook), Transmission (Torrent) and some other tiny helper applications. That's it actually. And why does it discourage you? Just open the Software Center and have fun, there are also user reviews and ratings, so looking for good apps is easy.

@ontaiwolf - I think the amount of choice out there is baffling to new users, to be frank; people have a great deal of difficulty, in general, deciding beyond 3 different choices (google "the power of three" for some interesting psychological insights), me included. My choice is between Windows, Mac OS and Linux, and I suspect that is the choice that faces the great unwashed at large. Adding further choice here - eg. the particular weirdy flavour of Linux, followed by a subchoice of window manager, whatever the hell one of those is (again, explain it to my mother...), and it suddenly becomes so much easier to forget the entire branch and go back to thinking, Windows or Mac OS. Mac is a no brainer because there's only one choice, and for Windows you generally get what you're given.

Cas Smiley

In what sad world do you live? Do you choose everything from 3 choices? When you buy a car do you choose from 3 cars, 3 colors etc.? When you go to eat somewhere, you always choose from only 3 dishes? When you watch TV, you watching only 3 shows?
12  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-27 20:55:42
Unless I'm mistaken, you're refering to princec here.

No, to all Windows users. Cheesy

Maybe he was talking about himself? I don't recall the US being a communistic country persecutioncomplex

Yes, I'm from Cuba, well german Cuba...  Grin Never heard of metaphors?
13  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-27 20:46:25
What remarks? Examples please.
14  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-27 20:40:47
You choose what you like more and what fits well with your way of work. I know, as a Windows user living in a communistic country with no choice, it's really hard to understand that you can choose and customize a desktop environment.

To Cinnamon. The thing is not really recommended for a Java developer, it freezes when you try to start a Java app. I would still recommend Ubuntu with Unity, just try it a little longer. Try to work with it for few days, e.g. try to configure Ubuntu, install some apps (from repository or PPAs), use them, try Java development etc.
15  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-27 14:59:38
Actually, just switched the other way and have no regrets.  Give the new Ubuntu some time.  Took me a little while to get used to it, but I'd say it's now the most productive desktop I've used.  In particular, it's great for keyboard driven stuff (Dash search, HUD, etc.)  I don't like the way Mint seem to forget LTS releases and not fix annoying bugs - I have no intention of upgrading every 6 months!

Yep, you have to get used to Unity what can take some time, probably few weeks. But afterwards it's really productive, because it's fast (especially if you use the keyboard often) and actually well designed.
16  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-27 14:42:45
Just tried Ubuntu 12.04 LTS 32bit desktop again...  Cranky Ghastly. I absolutely cannot stand the UI. Such a shame, ...

Please no such detailed information next time.
17  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-25 20:23:03
I think a more accurate view of the statistics of the general population might be found from, say, BBC News or even Google.

Wikipedia is less accurate than BBC News? Nice joke. Cheesy Well as long Google doesn't show some stats, Wikipedia stats are the best out there.
18  Game Development / Newbie & Debugging Questions / Re: Linux - Is there any Linux java developers ? on: 2012-06-25 16:16:36
Yup I saw that video when it first came out and the reality is that almost all hardware support for Linux is terrible. Nvidia may be bad...but ATI is the absolute worst. For example: at least Nvidia drivers work somewhat stably.

As someone who is really using "newer" GPUs from Nvidia and AMD... They are at the same level. Nvidia has problems with VSync sometimes, they fixed it a little with version 302 but it could be definitely better. The older version of the driver 295.xx (Ubuntu is shipped with 295.40) had also a performance problem for some GPUs.

AMD has the same problem with VSync, their drivers can't really handle it and they can't fix it. The funny thing is that the open source driver has excellent VSync support but the 3D performance is bad. But at least there are no performance holes in some versions as with Nvidia.

Both GPUs are "stable" for me, I don't have any crashes or freezes because of them. They also have the same 3D performance as the Windows drivers for me.

If you find that confusing - NVIDIA joined the Linux Foundation earlier this year!  Huh

Marketing gag because of Tegra. They need to promote it for Android.
19  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-25 15:29:47
You said what I was going to say. This person expects manufacturers, e.g. amd and nvidia to be testing the so many different flavours of Linux, with different Windowing systems and this and that instead of just 1. Even if Linux does get to 10% usage, each distro might have <1% - so you expect manufacturers to be worrying about 1% and not say 30%.

Pure nonsense. There is a good compatibility between all the distros, they use the same kernel, the same X, same libraries behind etc. In case of graphics drivers you don't need to care about window managers, many of the window managers don't even use 3D and the 3D managers are real 3D applications just like games.

For applications in general there is binary compatibility given by the kernel, the same goes for drivers. The drivers are also installed the same way on every Linux distribution. You don't need to care about anything.

Development is not more difficult as for Windows. I was part of a project once where we developed a middle sized scientific software only for Linux with 3D, network, with clients and servers, and much more, written with C++ (Java is really a puppy against it). The software ran fine on many distributions and Windows (as I said the software was written for Linux) even with a lot of dependencies.

Back to X . Although X window system won't be alone forever with Wayland coming, Wayland will have X-Server compatibility. So you will be able to use your GPU drivers written for X window system. And such toolkits like Qt and GTK don't actually need to support Wayland (but they will).

As you can see. Support on Linux is not a dead end with many distributions. I would say, as it goes for drivers, you have more problems with Windows and drivers. For example you can't use old drivers for XP on Win 7. In Linux you can use even really old drivers. Therefore Linux supports old hardware better than Win 7.

In the West I should think that general home penetration remains starkly under 1%.

Where do you have the number 1% which you are even lowering by "starkly". Most reliable numbers are here:

5.83% for Linux
4.22% for Android
That means 1.61% for all the Linux distributions.

We can also kick all the phone and tablet OSs to get the real share of the desktop OSs. And as you can think the number would grow, it will be probably more than 2%.
20  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-25 06:59:26
That's the issue. No one is taking ownership or responsibility. Linux is all for too many separate entities - I make my own distros, I make my own Window systems. The lack of unity cough cough excuse me is killing it.

Nah, the ownership and responsibility are taken by the companies behind Linux distributions. Like RedHat has taken taken ownership and responsibility for RedHat Enterprise and makes a lot of money with it. Same for Canonical and Ubuntu but with no money making. Cheesy Or Novell and Suse etc. These companies need to work to promote their OS. Not Linux. Linux is a piece of software, a kernel, nothing more...
21  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-25 06:44:46
It probably won't get huge market share.

I think it could. But as long as Windows comes with almost every PC or notebook Linux won't get significant market share. If it would come, let's say with 20% of the sold PCs, Linux could get up to 10% of the market share in few years which will be enough for better hardware and software support (e.g. more and better drivers, more software) and after that it could come even more often with sold PCs. There are only few now who are willing to look for another OS, download an ISO, burn it or put it on the USB, test it and then to install and configure it. Although the hardest part comes right after, to get used to the new OS. 1-2% of market share is not surprising because of that. It's like standing on a street and to count people, every 50th to 100th passing is a Linux user. This is actually a big achievement and not a sign for a bad OS.

This isn't a bad thing.

Yep, I also don't care about huge market share but 10% instead of 1-2% would be nice just to get a better hardware and software support.
22  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-24 22:58:24
Actually Windows 7 setup considers partition management as an advanced task so you need to click the Drive options (advanced) link to make those options available. Apparently.

Same for Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora etc.

@ontaiwolf - your answers just completely cement my position on the matter but yet you can't still can't see it :/ Where there is choice, there is confusion, there is incompatibility, there is more learning and unlearning, there is more support, there is no chance my mother will ever get to grips with it, and I can't be bothered, either. As @OrangyTang said back there ... when the choice is Windows, Mac OS, or Linux, then it'll all work out for your favourite flavour of OS. While it's Windows, Mac OS, Ubuntu, Mint, Fedora, Arch Linux, Debian, Slackware etc. compounded by at least two desktop window managers, at least two different package managers, and so on: no chance.

No, I think that you just don't understand Linux. Linux is not an OS and there is no company "Linux" which develops the Linux OS. Linux is an open source kernel developed by many companies (even by Microsoft). On the other side there are Linux distributions which use the kernel. They are the actual OSs. Some of them are made by companies like RedHat or Canonical and others by community like Debian or Arch. The user doesn't need to know all the distributions, he can just choose the best for him. Like you can go to a store and choose the shoes you like. Maybe it's confusing for you because you probably haven't tried Linux for at least two days yet.

Linux is open source, if you don't like something you can change it. Or just choose the best. That's the reason why are there so many of them. I'm sure that if Linux would be more successful you would see more different distributions.

You can see all the distributions as disconnected OSs (so you shouldn't see Linux as an OS but Ubuntu, Mint, Debian etc) who want peaces of the market like Windows or Mac OS. To get successful they don't need to work together to create a "Superlinux", they have to sell their OS on good hardware as I or Linus Torvalds said. And this is really difficult. Of course there are some other reasons like the small choice of professional software like Photoshop or games, but this is not really important, most of the users don't buy Photoshop for 1000€ and don't play Battlefield 3.

You are absolutely mistaken as to why users don't want to change OSes. It is not because they "don't know how to" - that is a patronising engineer's world view. It is because they do not need to. Windows is excellent, when all's said and done, and so is Mac OS. Doesn't stop me disliking them both for various reasons of course. But then every motorbike I've ever owned has some sort of flaw with it that you just have to ride around.

Sure you can also say that they don't need to change it. I listed only few examples. It doesn't really matter. If a good Linux distro would be preinstalled on good hardware most of users would use it till the last day of this hardware. Just like the Apple buyers use Mac OS although there is no Battlefield 3 for it.
23  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-24 22:22:39
Although I agree it has to go, it's a mandatory step of the Windows installing procedure too.


All that stuff's gotta go, forever, for consumer desktops. Once all the "how it works" is totally hidden away, the commandline is utterly unneeded, and everything works the same way across all versions of Linux - that is, the same software, the same GUI, and so on..

This is not gonna happen. The choice makes Linux. Command line is a useful tool and not necessary already, as I wrote ca. 20 times. Who was it who had problems finding it on Ubuntu? Cheesy I also gave some answers to you with iptables, ufw, file roller etc.

... then it'll be a massive success, just like Windows and Mac OS have been. And this is why it can never really succeed - because it will never have those features, because of its basic philosophy.

No. Let us think a little. When you go to a computer store, which OS do you find preinstalled on almost every PC or notebook? Right! Windows. You can also buy hardware with Mac OS. surprising which OS is installed there...

You can find the same answer here from Linus Torvalds: Go to 23:45 in the video.

Android is a big access because if you buy a phone you can find Android preinstalled there. If you buy a PC you find usually Windows or Mac OS (if its Apple hardware). And normal PC users don't want to change their OS, because for them the OS is part of a PC and they don't know anything about other OSs or they just don't want to install another OS because they don't know how to do it. So companies like Canonical need to became partners of hardware manufacturers to sell good hardware with Ubuntu or something else on it. This is really difficult because for hardware manufacturers like Dell this could end as a disaster for many reasons. Not really a simple task...
24  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-24 15:10:59
Well, I wouldn't say that the only dev of Mint tests his OS with some testers. Cheesy But he is actually building the OS so that Windows users can change easily. The OS does looks and feels like Windows a little.

Ubuntu has some real user tests, but as I remember they only have testers who have never used an OS or not really extensive.

Btw, I installed Fedora 17 in a virtual machine in about 15min. I think every child who can read could do it. Cheesy There were only 3 or 4 options to choose and all of them were the language, keyboard layout, some names, login and partitioning. An installation couldn't be easier.
25  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-24 14:18:47
I just tried installing Fedora 17. Guess what? It allows me to tick applications to add, but guess what again, I ticked the ones I want and it spits out a warning saying dependencies required - it doesn't automatically help me fix this, only ask me to go back. I don't know what to tick - it's not obvious. I spent ages trying to tick/untick failing.

Windows doesn't install 2000 versions. You only have 1 version of directx / Java / .Net, but bundling IS an OPTION, just like Linux. You can still have abc1.0 vs abc2.0.

Besides, I don't care. I just want the damn thing to install and I can't. No point defending it. It's utter fail. I give up when I can't even install.

Post an image of the "tick" and the warning. I'm wondering what has to go wrong during the installation process so that you can't move on, actually it must be well tested.

I said, you can install 1000 times the same dependency, it's really possible. For example Qt, so many apps are using it but how often have you installed Qt run libs? Probably never, that's because apps bundle them together with the core app.

You also can have abc1.0 and abc2.0 on Linux. Qt is a good example again, you can find Qt4 and Qt3 in the repository. Same thing for Java, Java 6 and 7 are available in the repository, to stay on topic of this forums. Cheesy
26  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-24 12:51:14
In Ubuntu with Unity, I could NOT find the command line anywhere - not that I didn't want to. It wasn't in the usual simple Linux places, e.g. right click, searching the dash etc, I eventually gave up.

Super-Button or click on Dash, type "ter" or "term" or "termi" or "termin" or "termina" or "terminal", Enter. Or just navigate with the mouse in the Ubuntu-Dash (click for that on Application-Lens, then let you show all the installed apps and choose the terminal). Or press ctrl-alt-t. Or press Alt-F2 and type "terminal". Or open terminal and type "terminal". Or press ctrl+alt+f1 and login... Cheesy

Actually it's even an example that terminal (e.g. command line) is not important in a distribution, it's just an additional tool like many others.

See, the issue is that every application I see by default is integrated with that system menubar - chrome isn't. Ok, there might be an option, but that already makes it not user friendly. Do you know why good set of defaults is very important to UX design? You should only change behaviour if you need to change something that's NOT the norm - when everyone else uses menubar and chrome doesn't, something's wrong.

You have the same "problem" with Windows too. How is it OS' fault if an app is not consistent by default? As I said, in case of Chrome or Chromium you can change it by 2 clicks. And ask Google why they do that.

Ok, that was just a bad example, but a lot of things don't work. Neither does it give me more options, e.g. in 7z, extract to New Folder, etc etc all from the right click context menu. Not good enough. And yes, I do know how to use the command line. I use the command line in managing linux servers and there is NO GUI. So for a change, when using it on a desktop, I wanted to use the GUI and it should be do-able that way.

7z is proprietary, it can't be installed by default. There is a thing called "license", it shows you what you can do and what not. 7z cannot be installed by default, same goes for rar (or codecs, fonts etc.), but you can install them really fast in the repository.
Extract to new folder: There are 3 things. 1. Nautilus extracts everything to a new folder if the archive contains a folder or more than 2 files/folders. 2. If you always want a folder and to name this folder, double click on the archive and let it extract to a folder. It's a double click more. I don't see why it's not enough. 3. Nautilus is expandable with scripts, you can add the option by yourself: I think the option is not there to keep the menu clean, it has already 15 options by default.

Issue again. So many Linux distributions, so many variations. So much crap to support. It should be Windows, Linux, OS X, etc... not <insert 2000 versions of Linux>. The amsn UI is already horrible compared to Windows MSN. I want something that works nicely with all the features thanks. Just like I want photoshop not GIMP.

That's not true. There are only two important package systems, deb and rpm, and only few important distributions, Debian, Ubuntu, Mint (deb based) and OpenSuse, RedHat, Fedora (rpm based). With just two packages you will cover 90% of Linux users. For other distributions you can compile the software and compress it, such distributions like Arch Linux will put the files to their repository by themselves.

If you don't like amsn, why did you want it? Take Empathy, it's installed by default and can be used for MSN, ICQ, Google Talk, Facebook etc.

There were 2 software managers on Linux Mint when I tried it. Which 1 do I use? Which repository do I look at? The App Store on OSX makes sense - incredibly simple - on Windows you go to websites and download install, simple enough. What do you do in Linux? And guess, what it doesn't install together - all you get is dependency after dependency or related stuff you have to find but you won't know. I want it all to make sense in 1 place, e.g. if I search for Xen, I don't have to then look for Xen Tools and I might not know Xen Tools exist or what it even is.

What two software managers? I don't know Mint. Do you mean the Software Center and Synaptic? It doesn't matter which one you take because it's the same repository. They are just GUI front ends. Software Center is more nooby and easy to handle (with screenshots, paid apps, and user reviews) but not powerfull, Synaptic is powerfull with more options (for example you can freeze packages so that they can't be updated) but it's not nooby-like.

Dependencies are actually a positive argument, to keep the OS clean you install a dependency only once and then it can be used by multiple applications. With the Windows approach you could install the same dependency 1000 times. Software managers like Synaptic or apt-get can resolve dependencies really fast and easy, you just need to confirm that you want them. And you want them if you want an application. You will only get dependency problems if a package is too old or too new (for example when you are using an older distro version and want to install a up-to-date package manually), but that's not usual.

I agree that Unity sucks. They tried to copy OSX but it's way not as polished.

And why does it suck? I'm really interested.

For me it's good. The only thing I don't like is the handling of multiple windows of the same app. Everything else is fine. I can open apps really fast, I can switch windows really fast, Unity saves vertical space for me and the global menu is good (with all the usefull options on top).

We don't want tricks. We want it to just work or easily configurable. Not 200 hops to do something simple. Left/Right... simple.

Aha and why that? Because Windows and Mac OS have this options? If so, show me this. Show me an option where I can switch the position of the buttons. Right, you can't at all.

In Unity it's not meant to be able to switch the positions but you still can do it, even if it's an easy workaround.

I hope you realize that windows 8 will look the same. Metro is just a tablet gimmick.

Not in my world. Metro is by default everywhere not only on tablets. And I'm pretty sure that Win 9 or 10 will remove the old desktop completely although there will be probably a virtual machine to start an old session (like the XP session in Win 7 Pro).
27  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-24 10:24:20
From my experience I spend far less time helping those on Linux than on Windows.

Same here. Installed this for some family members because I was tired of all the calls. No complains so far. Actually they would probably complain if they have to go back.

The problem around here is those people with a strong Windows mindset (no, people, we do not install random shite we've found on the interwebs!  Wink ).  I've spent over 15 years working with Windows, and 10 with Linux.  Unless you're willing to take the time to learn the differences then you're always going to think one is inferior.  No OS is free, and the biggest investment is time.  Ubuntu is now my primary OS, but if you think I spend my day hacking text files or fiddling with things on the CLI (unless I want to), you're very much mistaken.  I've experienced far more driver and DLL hell on Windows than I ever have on Linux.  I'm with Cas on one thing - I want an easy life - I just find that now Linux is far simpler and more productive for me.

Sign. I gave Cero the advice to get used to Linux before he makes his video. He didn't follow it. Probably spent 30 mins trying it. He hasn't seen Windows, so he canceled his try. Now there is one person more who didn't like Linux because the window buttons are on the left and he couldn't change it. Cheesy He is one of the persons (together with princec) who is used to Windows and expects others OSs to work this way or the other OS should at least read his minds. I would love to see them working with Win 8 and newer. They will probably never change Win 7. Cheesy
28  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-24 09:08:58
Nah, see, fundamentally I'm in the right line of work because I've stumbled across a toolchain and way of working that makes my life really easy. I've been professionally coding for a shade under 20 years now and it is a total waste of my life, which would otherwise be spent riding motorbikes and having fun.

That's fine for us but just don't post some stupid statements about Linux like...

I use Windows because everything works, and I can configure the few things that need configuring with idiot-proof GUIs, and I put up with the shite that it brings to the table simply because there's nothing else out there that fixes it.


The mere mention of a commandline makes me groan. GUIs guide me in every step and provide me with context at every twitch of the mouse. The commandline provides me with absolutely nothing. I don't want to learn any more than is absolutely necessary because my tiny brain is, well, full. Never mind me, though. Think about the other 2 billion computer users and try to sell the concept of iptables and ufw to them versus Windows Firewall. Arrgh. Actually come up with a sales pitch for my mum, not me. She's the one you really need to convince.

1. As already said, ca. 20 times, you are not forced to use a GUI, GUI is an option which you have almost always. Of course there is the command line but that's because Linux is also a server OS which can be used without a GUI. You know, you can save some resources when you kick some unused stuff. And a GUI is not necessary on a server...
2. You have front ends for iptables: firehol, Firestarter, guidedog, kmyfirewall, pyroman, shorewall. Enough? You just showed again that you have no idea what Linux is and how it works.
3. You also have a front end for ufw: Gufw

The menubar might be good in Linux, but I've got the latest Google Chrome on Linux and it doesn't use the menubar. With such inconsistency, it doesn't help. This is Chrome, the most used browser, not some random software. If you can't expect and get everyone to adopt it, then it doesn't work. The menubar is also very fiddly - it sometimes works because 1/2 the time it's used for something else - only when you hover you get the options you need.

1. You just need to open your eyes. Right click on the window bar of Chrome and select the last option with native window and title bar.
2. If you don't like it, you can uninstall the menu bar. As I said, the menu bar was created to save some vertical space on 16:9 screens with low resolutions. For example. In Windows you need ca. 50px for the panel, 25px the title bar and 25px for the window. So you need 100px, in Ubuntu you just need 25px. So 100px of for example 768px which lets you only 660px to work, against 740px in Ubuntu. The global menu is nice especially on notebooks. And if you have a big screen you can deactivate it.

unzip is arcane wizardry. I downloaded a file then I just want to unzip it. In Windows, you download from your browser, open in the folder and press unzip. I don't want to work out how to do it. This applies to every action not just unzip. Sure unzip might be simple, but there are lot of complicated ones.

You haven't read anything. You can do this in Ubuntu or almost every other distribution too. Right click on file, "Extract here", ready. Out of the box.

I tried to install amsn on Linux Mint and it says libgstfarsight0.10.0-0 >=0 or something is not satisfiable. I double clicked to install. I got the latest version. What in the world is that? The messages in Linux just don't make sense to humans. How about something like a Windows version of "You're missing "component x" please download from "here" or whatever". Up to now everyone would be bashing me about being not technical Smiley I typed in apt-get install lib... guess what? It says this lib is an older version and has been released by libgstream... but I still can't install amsn. Linux' whole crap on this depends on this lib and this depends on this lib is annoying to the max. Just bundle it as part of the application. Install should install amen. Has that ever happened in Windows? Maybe directx or .net framework, but the messages are meaningful and there are a few components at max, no 999999999.

amsn is not available for Ubuntu anymore, so you probably downloaded an older package and it's also not available for 64bit. The latest package you can find is in Oneiric. You should blame amsn devs for that. They are probably like you, they poop on Linux. Where did you get the package? The easiest solution would be Empathy or Pidgin. Empathy is preinstalled and can handle more than MSN.

This is personal maybe, but the UI in Linux is ugly. I think KDE is better, but GNOME and variants, including Unity, MATE, Cinnamon are. Like Riven says, you can tell which 'tab' has context because it looks distinctly pressed etc, but the whole Linux UI is almost 1 color that you can't tell what's what.

Yep, that's personal.

Why am I using Linux? Like Cas, I'm writing Java Applications too - I'm just using Linux to test to make sure my application works. Until they can do something right I don't want to switch over to Linux. I downloaded AMD's driver from AMD's site. Windows = double click install. What do you do in Linux? Double click opens it up in a text editor. Buhahaha. I try to run it with ./<filename> - still fails. I had to look it up. No, I know how to code, but I don't want to have to remember it. If I stop using Windows for years and come back to it, at most I'll be looking for where the button is. In the world of Linux, you have to try to look for a command, but you have no idea where to look for it. No, don't talk about MAN, man pages are the most unreadable things in history man. Most of the time after I did a man on a command, I had to man the man explanation.

Why did you download the drivers? They are already in the repository. You can activate them easily in the system settings under "Additional drivers", it's just one click!

Installed latest ubuntu, installed gnome because unity sucks.

And why?

All themes have close, maximize and minimize buttons on the left.
Cant get them to go to the right.

Actually Gnome has buttons on the right. You probably installed Gnome-Classic. And of course you can move them to the right. You can do this in gconf although it's a little tricky. Hey, but at least you can use GUI for that. Cheesy

Cant install new themes via console packages arent found.

What packages?

I shouldnt have to install themes by console anyway - there should be a button with "browse more themes here" which shows a gallery, which applies the selected theme WITH ONE CLICK.
This is exactly what the Opera Theme/Skin gallery does.

You get that for example with KDE. Installing themes with Ubuntu requires few manual steps, just look on DevianArt for themes and follow the installation instructions. An example:

Giving up.

No video? Grin
29  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-23 21:48:03
You're dealing with people, ...

No robots here? We have 2012, damn it! Cheesy

so if you want to convince them of your opinion, it helps to play nice.

I know, the truth doesn't sound nice sometimes... Grin Just joking. I've been a reader here but I couldn't leave some of the posts unresponded. I will probably go to the reader state again.

30  Discussions / Miscellaneous Topics / Re: Preferred OS? on: 2012-06-23 19:25:38
So you are still hanging on your "pulling hairs" statements and no precise examples. My experience is completely different. I save a lot of time using Ubuntu, especially from a view of a developer. I mean, for example I can install many libs directly from the repository or PPAs (well not that much in case of Java but C++ or Python) and don't need to care about updates etc. The same goes for software like Eclipse. No search on the interwebz and so on... Sure there is no huge choice of software but I don't really care, all I need is also available for Linux (except for some games which do I play on Windows). Everything else is at the same level or even better as in Windows for me.

Nice that you argument against Linux with Java. I'm pretty sure that there are many people (about 95% of Linux users) who can't code at all and can still handle Linux way better than you. Grin All you need is just get used to it. Just like you got used to Windows when you started. Linux is not more difficult it's just different (sometimes). Which doesn't mean that you have to use CLI but for example installing and updating software is different (and easier). And Linux is adaptable, you have a real choice how you want to work, although it's one of the things what non Linux users criticize, too much choice... Roll Eyes
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